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Thread: 4CC Ladies Free Skate

  1. #511
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    I think Machiko Yamada is a great mental coach. It's no accident that she was the first coach of many top skaters in Japan, including Midori, Mao, Miki and Kanako. I think it's really rare to find someone who has the gift to mentor children to have a mindset required to become a top athlete, so I really respect her for that.

    But... she is an awful technical coach!! I mean, if only Mao had someone like Mishin or Nobuo Sato as her first coach, she wouldn't have the technical issues that she has now, though, it may well have been that without Machiko Yamada, she may not have ever dreamt of becoming an Olympian figure skater in the first place.

    I think Machiko Yamada should continue to coach Kanako to nurture her mentally, but she should pair up with a competent technical coach who can teach Kanako to stroke and jump properly.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I think Machiko Yamada should continue to coach Kanako to nurture her mentally, but she should pair up with a competent technical coach who can teach Kanako to stroke and jump properly.
    I agree. Kanako does so many things amazingly well that it's a shame she doesn't work on some of the small details that make her skating look sloppy sometimes. She presents her programs superbly, her footwork and transitions are difficult, and she uses her edges well. With more polish she would be an equal to Yuna/Carolina/Mao at their best.

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Murakami didn't land 5 Triples at Skate Canada, she landed 7 and one of them was underrotated. I don't need to see the tech specialist video, I've seen them before and it doesn't add anything extra. High-def, slo-mo captures of the performances are all you need. Moreover, tech specialists are NOT trained in jump science. Until the ISU starts to understand the full extent of the mechanics and actually put it in their training seminars, most calls are lacking in validity. Tech panels make snap judgements that don't have enough real analysis.

    Anyway, that aside, I think Murakami deserves higher PCS for her LP than Suzuki does for hers. Suzuki's program is nice and the final footwork sequence is wonderful, but a lot of the program still feels like "required elements", whereas Murakami's program is not only more difficult (because of the transitions) but also more effective because almost all of the movement feels well-tailored to the music.

    I rate Suzuki higher on PCS for the SP, but Murakami's harder jump layout and better spins put her ahead still.
    Actually, three were under-rotated. That's how it was called. And one would assume that the same fairness is applied to all skaters. It's not a coincidence that Kanako continually gets called for UR's internationally. As far as the ISU tech specialists being un-trained in jump science and the like, there is no evidence to support you accusing tech specialists of not being trained in jump science outside of ISU seminars. But clearly, since they disagree with you, they must all be wrong.

    One can only pray that the ISU hires you BOP to enlighten all the ill-informed tech specialists and save figure skating from its invalidities.

  4. #514
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    Here's a list of all the competitions where Murakami got URs.

    3z<, 3f<+2t 2008 JGP ESP SP
    3t<+2t< 2008 JGP ESP FS
    3s+2lo+2lo< 2008 JGP GBR FS
    2a< 2008 JGPF SP
    1s+2t<, 2a<, 3s<+2t+2lo 2008 JGPF FS
    3s< 2009 JGP CRO FS
    2a< 2009 JGPF SP
    3s+2lo+2lo< 2009 JGPF FS
    3t+3t< 2010 JW SP
    3f<, 2010 SA SP
    3lo<, 3s+2lo<+2lo< 2010 SA FS
    3t<+3t, 2010 NHK SP
    3ze<, 3lo< 2s+2t<+2lo 2010 NHK FS
    3t+3t< 2011 WORLDS SP
    3t+3t<, 3lo< 2011 WORLDS FS
    3f+3t<, 3lo<< 2011 COC SP
    3lo<, 3f<, 3f<^2a, 3s<+2lo+2lo 2011 COC FS
    3f+3t<< 2011 TEB SP
    3ze< 2011 TEB FS
    3f<, 3t+3t< 2012 WOLRDS FS
    3t+3t<, 3f<< 2012 SC SP
    3lo<+2lo, 3s<+2t+2lo, 3t< 2012 SC FS
    3t+3t<, 3f< 2012 TEB SP
    3lo<+2lo 2012 TEB FS
    3f<, 2a< 2013 4CC FS

    Please do not try to claim that ALL those tech teams were wrong.
    Last edited by chuckm; 02-14-2013 at 08:15 PM.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Yamada coached Midori Ito to her World Title and OSM, so I think that she is actually a good coach, it's just Kanako that has some technique issues... But maybe working with a very IJS-friendly coach like Orser could help her...
    Orser isn't great at teaching technique. Skaters who've done well under him (Kim, Fernandez) didn't really improve under him technique wise (Kim already had terrific jump technique, Fernandez was going for two quads in his FS before visiting Orser). Skaters that had technique issues (Gao and Rippon with their double/triple axel) tended to have those issues when they left. Orser is terrific at packaging and promoting PCS aspects, along with Wilsons David and Tracy.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Orser isn't great at teaching technique. Skaters who've done well under him (Kim, Fernandez) didn't really improve under him technique wise (Kim already had terrific jump technique, Fernandez was going for two quads in his FS before visiting Orser). Skaters that had technique issues (Gao and Rippon with their double/triple axel) tended to have those issues when they left. Orser is terrific at packaging and promoting PCS aspects, along with Wilsons David and Tracy.
    Is Nobu Sato considered a good technician?

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    Is Nobu Sato considered a good technician?
    Basically yes, at least in Jpn...but for most skaters it seems to take a bit longer to become consistant when they're being tutored by him (Nakano, Kozuka). Sato said he always makes his pupils go over basics on and on. Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't recall that many of his skaters getting seriously injured in the past, which is good. But many think that Nagakubo may be better in teaching jumps; the fact Akiko achieved a 3-3 finally last season at her age impressed many people.

    As for Orser, even if Kim and Javi had good techs before they went to him, I still think that without him, their jumps may never have become as stable as they are now. Plus you should never forget how dramatically Yuzu improved his techs after he started working with him.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
    As for Orser, even if Kim and Javi had good techs before they went to him, I still think that without him, their jumps may never have become as stable as they are now. Plus you should never forget how dramatically Yuzu improved his techs after he started working with him.
    Yuzuru was pretty impressive technically at 2012 Worlds. His 4T and 3A were very, very consistent at that time. I'm not seeing this huge improvement in Yuzuru's skating since he went to Orser. The 4S isn't working so well so far at that's the only jump he tries since he went to Orser.

  9. #519
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Please do not try to claim that ALL those tech teams were wrong.
    When everyone is taught wrong, it's hardly unthinkable.

    Not ALL of the tech calls were wrong, but I feel the majority of them in recent years are. Murakami pre-rotates a lot of her jumps less than usual and the tech panels never seem to actually pay attention to where the jump starts and look at the actual air rotation she is getting. They just look at the landing as if she had taken off from the typical spot on the ice and call it underrotated based on that.

    Murakami has never done a 3T-3T combination in her competitive senior career that should be called <. Her 3F and 3Lo at 4CC were fine. Her 3Lo and 3Sal at Skate Canada were fine, and her 3F in the SP there was only <, not <<. Last season at Cup of China she got unfairly slammed when her 3F+3T combo was complete and the 3Lo was only <, not <<. Then 4 calls in the LP, when the second Flip and the Salchow were fine.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
    Plus you should never forget how dramatically Yuzu improved his techs after he started working with him.
    please, may you list these dramatic Yuzu's tech improvements?

    thanks!
    Last edited by giulia95; 02-15-2013 at 04:12 AM.

  11. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirunna View Post
    Yuzuru was pretty impressive technically at 2012 Worlds. His 4T and 3A were very, very consistent at that time. I'm not seeing this huge improvement in Yuzuru's skating since he went to Orser. The 4S isn't working so well so far at that's the only jump he tries since he went to Orser.
    His 3A was consistent last year, his 4T wasn't consistent at all. He has a 4T-3T in the short last year, but only landed the quad cleanly a couple of times, one in combo with a 2T (Worlds), one not in combo. His 4T was more consistent in the free but even then he only landed it half of the time. It's much better this year.
    His 3A's consistency in competition is the same (100%).
    He said his 4S is very good when he does it alone, but he's having problems doing the two quads back to back. It's been going well in practice but at 4CC his timing was too fast, he was too nervous.
    He also said that his skating skills are much better (explains it in this interview wih eng subtitles, after SA).

    Have fun, I'm keeping away from this argument (not sure what it has to do with the ladies's free skate thread, anyway)

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalina View Post
    His 3A was consistent last year, his 4T wasn't consistent at all. He has a 4T-3T in the short last year, but only landed the quad cleanly a couple of times, one in combo with a 2T (Worlds), one not in combo. His 4T was more consistent in the free but even then he only landed it half of the time. It's much better this year.
    His 3A's consistency in competition is the same (100%).
    He said his 4S is very good when he does it alone, but he's having problems doing the two quads back to back. It's been going well in practice but at 4CC his timing was too fast, he was too nervous.
    He also said that his skating skills are much better (explains it in this interview wih eng subtitles, after SA).

    Have fun, I'm keeping away from this argument (not sure what it has to do with the ladies's free skate thread, anyway)
    yes, you're right.. I'll answer in Orser thread..sorry!

  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    When everyone is taught wrong, it's hardly unthinkable.

    Not ALL of the tech calls were wrong, but I feel the majority of them in recent years are. Murakami pre-rotates a lot of her jumps less than usual and the tech panels never seem to actually pay attention to where the jump starts and look at the actual air rotation she is getting. They just look at the landing as if she had taken off from the typical spot on the ice and call it underrotated based on that.

    Murakami has never done a 3T-3T combination in her competitive senior career that should be called <. Her 3F and 3Lo at 4CC were fine. Her 3Lo and 3Sal at Skate Canada were fine, and her 3F in the SP there was only <, not <<. Last season at Cup of China she got unfairly slammed when her 3F+3T combo was complete and the 3Lo was only <, not <<. Then 4 calls in the LP, when the second Flip and the Salchow were fine.
    YOUR opinion, and you are a fan, not a technical specialist or a technical controller.

  14. #524
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    YOUR opinion, and you are a fan, not a technical specialist or a technical controller.
    A technical specialist or technical controller is nothing more than the person the ISU has picked. I have done the actual ISU seminars and have done much more outside research than most of the people who sit on the post. Until the ISU clarifies their rules and streamlines their training, so that it is mathematically and scientifically sound with how jumps actually work, then there is little need to place much trust in what they call.

  15. #525
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    To say she's never done a 3T-3T which should have been called < is pretty lofty a statement... how many times has she been called for the UR, this season alone? Of course, since everyone except you is taught wrong, I can't imagine why you would think anything otherwise.
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-15-2013 at 04:21 PM.

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