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4CC Ladies Free Skate

SkateNater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
The screen cap of Mao's under-rotated triple axel in her free program that you made shows she is taking off forward . Had she landed it, she would have landed it facing the opposite direction. She didn't, so she got an under-rotation call on that attempt, but it was not pre-rotated. I get so annoyed by posters like you who simply don't want to acknowledge that Mao can do a triple axel. She can. And she'll continue to get more of then ratified inthe future.

No, it shows that she is taking of backwards (see, I can do it, too!). As in, her back is facing the direction she's jumping TOWARDS. Backwards and forwards is relative to the direction of travel. Axels are usually a quarter turn sideways, as I illustrated. She's WAY past that. It's not really anything worth arguing or debating, because the video and pictures speak for themselves. I don't have the energy to waste forcing you to see what is obvious.

Also, you can stop wailing about the triple axel. It's not even really about the triple. She does the same thing on her double axel as well. She isn't the only skater who does this (that issue is more common with Ladies than Men, by far), either.

And to be frank, the chances of Kim Yu Na showing up to Sochi with a triple loop, or Kostner showing up with a triple Flip/Triple Toe are much higher than Mao suddenly showing up with great jump technique at this point... Mao has been "fixing her jumps" for like 5 years now.

Everyone says Kim doesn't have a loop but I fail to see how she doesn't have a loop. Maybe she hates the jump and doesn't want to compete it, but before Vancouver she had great triple loops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM62CMStq1A

If she needs to put it in to win, it will be there. I expect Kostner to have a 3/3 by then. And then there are the Russian and others who by Sochi will have their PCS in line to challenge.

Have a nice day.
 
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minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
No, it shows that she is taking of backwards (see, I can do it, too!). As in, her back is facing the direction she's jumping TOWARDS. Backwards and forwards is relative to the direction of travel. Axels are usually a quarter turn sideways, as I illustrated. She's WAY past that. It's not really anything worth arguing or debating, because the video and pictures speak for themselves. I don't have the energy to waste forcing you to see what is obvious.

Also, you can stop wailing about the triple axel. It's not even really about the triple. She does the same thing on her double axel as well. She isn't the only skater who does this (that issue is more common with Ladies than Men, by far), either.

And to be frank, the chances of Kim Yu Na showing up to Sochi with a triple loop, or Kostner showing up with a triple Flip/Triple Toe are much higher than Mao suddenly showing up with great jump technique at this point... Mao has been "fixing her jumps" for like 5 years now.
Everyone says Kim doesn't have a loop but I fail to see how she doesn't have a loop. Maybe she hates the jump and doesn't want to compete it, but before Vancouver she had great triple loops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM62CMStq1A

If she needs to put it in to win, it will be there. I expect Kostner to have a 3/3 by then. And then there are the Russian and others who by Sochi will have their PCS in line to challenge.

Have a nice day.

I am glad you dont play favorites. First, Mao has not been fixing her jumps for 5 years, even if you were trying to be funny it wasnt. Second, if you know more about technical call than the judges, why do we even watch competitions we can come to the board and rely on your calls. You are pretending to be a technical expert to put Mao down. Get over it her triple axel was ratified. Her jumps are not perfect, but who is perfect.
 

enzet

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
The only ladies that have done truly clean triple axels in competition so far are Ito and Harding...Asada's jump is so cheated on the take off, that with the allowances the rules leave on the landing her "triple Axels" often rotate (in the air) less than the average triple toe loop or salchow.

Midori Ito did the same thing on her 3A (as Mao). Tonya Harding didn't.

So is Midori's 3A as badly cheated on the take-off as Mao's or is it actually the only clean 3A ever done by a lady along with that of Harding?
Seems to me, you cannot quite make up your mind.

Anyway, this whole pseudo-analysis is ridiculous beyond words. :rolleye:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The typical toeloop will turn on the picking foot 1/2 rotation from the point of where the takeoff starts. It can be less or more, though. Anything more than 1/2 should be counted against the skater on the allowance given on the landing. Less than 1/2 should be credited to the skater for the point they need to land. Murakami barely turns on her toepick at all for the toeloop jump, she just plants it in the ice and goes up. The air rotation is what needs to be counted. She's getting just as much rotation as tons of other toeloops that don't get called <.

That's not the point I was making... look at where her right foot is at the 5:00 mark (pointing to the right of the screen). That is the point at which rotations should be counted in the 3T, so to fully complete 3.00 rotations, her foot must land in that position. For her to complete 2.75 rotations and avoid a < her foot must point towards the viewer (90 degrees clockwise to what it is at 5:00). When she lands the 3T< her foot lands more than 90 degrees clockwise (of her foot at 5:00) so it is thus under-rotated.

Any argument that her rotations needs to be counted later as she's turned her body more counter-clockwise and picks in only serves to further prove that she's under-rotated the jump, because the point of reference would be even more counter-clockwise than at 5:00. (And one certainly wouldn't say that the start of the 3 rotations should be counted more clockwise than her foot is at 5:00.)

The air rotation also is not what's entirely counted, otherwise tons of jumps would be called as under-rotated since some rotation occurs on takeoff, and many female skaters land within 1/4 turn instead of completing exactly 1080 degrees. Surely you don't think Murakami's 3T< had 2.75 rotations of airborne time.

I don't see why people are complaining that there's all these <s for Murakami when the tech specialists clearly count some of her jumps as URed and others as rotated (if they were out to get her they probably wouldn't be as meticulous). The reason for this is that some of her jumps she is prone to UR, and has herself admitted it. I doubt all the tech specialists are consistently wrong if they're independently calling jumps like her FS's second 3L as under-rotated and the camera shows that they are correct in many cases. Has she gotten unfair calls? Probably. But nothing that would alter her results, and nothing that would negate all or even most of the under-rotated calls that have been assessed for her. And the tech specialist is the one with access to seeing the jump in slow motion and closer. You or I do not have access to that, so with all your jump science knowledge and whatnot, you are depending on a camera angle and the frame rate of a YouTube video to make a call. The room for error is far greater for you or me than it is for those who are making the calls.

Again, if you're so well-versed and trained, I don't understand why you yourself aren't a tech specialist? Seems like a waste of credentials, even if the courses are as flawed as you say they are.
 

James R

Match Penalty
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
My posts were deleted from the forum changes I think. :(

First off, the main 4CC wikipedia entry last night listed Yuna Kim as having won this event rather than Mao Asada. I HAVE to assume that wasn't accidental, but from ongoing feuding against Mao from Yuna fans. Pathetic. It's fixed now but who knows if they'll do it again.

Second, about Gracie's FS - originally I saw her breathing heavily before the start, and thought she had winded herself in the warmup. On watching it again I can see that was not the case. I really think she had a bad case of nerves. You can see her staring nervously as she approaches her start position, and I think the breathing was her trying to calm her nerves. Going from juniors one year, to senior this year in this "almost-Worlds" competition where she's hyped and expected to be the top US lady at this event, getting on the ice with Mao Asada and leading off the final group? A LOT of people would be shell-shocked from that. So I think it's understandable, and I'm not all that worried. She clearly has the ability. Hopefully she can find the mental toughness to deal with the pressure. I believe she will.
 

SkateNater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
So is Midori's 3A as badly cheated on the take-off as Mao's or is it actually the only clean 3A ever done by a lady along with that of Harding?
Seems to me, you cannot quite make up your mind.

Anyway, this whole pseudo-analysis is ridiculous beyond words. :rolleye:

Obviously I went back and looked at them.

Didn't Mao train under Ito's coach for a while when she was younger?
 
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enzet

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Obviously I went back and looked at them.

Didn't Mao train under Ito's coach for a while when she was younger?

Yes, she did and while some of Yamada's students are known for having a bad flutz, there is absolutely nothing wrong with either Midori's or Mao's axel take-off.

IMHO Midori had the best triple axel ever among the ladies, period. Harding's was also huge and quite impressive, but I just couldn't stand how tilted she often was in the air. This is just my personal preference though, others might be more bothered by Midori's leg wrap.

Anyway, all of these three ladies (have) had a triple axel.
Mao may underroate it on the landing from time to time but to suggest her 3A is closer to a double or that she can't even do a double axel or double jumps is just too much to take anything you write on this subject seriously, sorry.

I think there is or at least should be a line between debating technical issues and being just plain disrespectful.
 
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mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
yes, she did and while some of yamada's students are known for having a bad flutz, there is absolutely nothing wrong with either midori's or mao's axel take-off.

Imho midori had the best triple axel ever among the ladies, period. Harding's was also huge and quite impressive, but i just couldn't stand how tilted she often was in the air. This is just my personal preference though, others might be more bothered by midori's leg wrap.

Anyway, all of these three ladies (have) had a triple axel.
Mao may underroate it on the landing from time to time but to suggest her 3a is closer to a double or that she can't even do a double axel or double jumps is just too much to take anything you write on this subject seriously, sorry.

i think there is or at least should be a line between debating technical issues and being just plain disrespectful.

this!
 

SkateNater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
I didn't disrespect anyone so I'm ignoring that. Don't see how me critiquing the technique is somehow more offensive than posters basically telling me I'm hallucinating...

Yamata teaches a very lunged axel take off that promotes that prerogative. She is known for teaching sloppy technique.

Midori was a great jumper but she had more than her share of flaws in her technique. With a better coach she'd have probably be doing quads. Harding's Axel technique was technically superior to that of Ito, and she did have better technique on her flip and Lutz. The only thing Midori's had over Harding was better consistency.

They were both phenols as far as I'm concerned, so it's not really use going off on that tangent, cause I'll feel the need to rip the videos off YouTube and load them into my video analysis program to display what km talking. About, yet again.
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Midori was a great jumper but she had more than her share of flaws in her technique. With a better coach she'd have probably be doing quads. Harding's Axel technique was technically superior to that of Ito, and she did have better technique on her flip and Lutz. The only thing Midori's had over Harding was better consistency.

...seriously? Harding had an explosive triple axel in terms of power and speed, but her air position was quite poor (tilted and off-axis) and the landing was often quite precarious with a wild swinging free leg.
 

SkateNater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
...seriously? Harding had an explosive triple axel in terms of power and speed, but her air position was quite poor (tilted and off-axis) and the landing was often quite precarious with a wild swinging free leg.

Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYViHpq1KTs

Everything you said can be applied to Ito, who had worse air position than Harding and a ton of precarious landings with a swinging free leg on her 3A's.
 
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enzet

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYViHpq1KTs

Everything you said can be applied to Ito, who had worse air position than Harding and a ton of precarious landings with a swinging free leg on her 3A's.

Not sure what exactly you wanted to demonstrate by that video, but it's a perfect example of everything I don't like about Harding's 3A (if I wanted to be very picky, it's still an impressive jump!).
She has done much better axels than this one.

As for Midori, no, she had a much better air position, landing, as well as setting up for the jump. The only thing that could be criticized is her leg wrap, that I don't mind at all, but I know some others do, and it's understandable, since it could be called a technical flaw.

As for you "hallucinating," as you yourself called it, to be perfectly honest, on in this particular subject, I think you are.
I don't find your posts offensive in general and I actually think you are able to discuss things in a pretty civilized manner, which I appreciate, but I absolutely don't see what you are seeing here, and neither do most other skating fans or experts, I suppose.

If I decide to claim that Plushenko cannot do a 4T, or even a 3T or a 2T for that matter, and start posting videos and long elaborates that actually do not prove anything of that kind, I cannot expect others to just automatically accept it as a fact.
 
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