4CC Ladies Free Skate

[jenaj]

I recently watched a documentary on the early part of Yuna's life and it featured all her struggles early on - getting adequate practice time, rinks too cold to practice, not being able to get good skating boots. And when I watch some of her earlier performances (and even her Arirang LP) I see a lot of pain and struggle in her expression. Some construe this reserved nature as a lack of artistry; I think it's the opposite. I thought her step sequence in her 2011 Worlds performance to Arirang to be the best she has ever done. If that's not purposeful I don't really know what is...

I agree that Yu Na has a very reserved quality in her skating. But whatever it is, I also agree it really worked for her in her Arirang program. Her step sequence in that program was just outstanding. I loved the placement of the spiral. There was just so much to love about that program. I wish she had kept it for this year. She was technically perfect in her long program at Korean Nationals, but so distant. The music cuts don't help.

[oleada]

Well, artistry is subjective. But that's just my impression when I watch her, and others have stated as much in this thread. I never pretended to speak for anyone but myself. I stand by what I say though - I mean, Mao and Carolina, they lately use the music so well, and hit every beat and it just radiates throughout. It's not about them being more expressive, necessarily (I think Yu-Na can be very expressive); but the fact that they express the music in their skating much better. I mean, looking at Yu-Na's Les Mis footwork - it's fairly generic movement that could be any music, but I can't imagine Mao's SP footwork being done to anything else but the music she's skating to. I didn't mean to insult or offend Yu-Na when I said her movement looks coached, but that's what it looks like - kinda forced or shallow.

I think that all skaters go through struggles - Mao's mom's long illness and recent death - so I'm not sure what exactly it has to do with their musicality.

[Ambivalent]

Well, artistry is subjective. But that's just my impression when I watch her, and others have stated as much in this thread. I never pretended to speak for anyone but myself. I stand by what I say though - I mean, Mao and Carolina, they lately use the music so well, and hit every beat and it just radiates throughout. It's not about them being more expressive, necessarily (I think Yu-Na can be very expressive); but the fact that they express the music in their skating much better. I mean, looking at Yu-Na's Les Mis footwork - it's fairly generic movement that could be any music, but I can't imagine Mao's SP footwork being done to anything else but the music she's skating to. I didn't mean to insult or offend Yu-Na when I said her movement looks coached, but that's what it looks like - kinda forced or shallow.

I think that all skaters go through struggles - Mao's mom's long illness and recent death - so I'm not sure what exactly it has to do with their musicality.

I get that YuNa has never really been your favourite but I think one's choice of words could be more... shall we say, diplomatic in terms of offering your personal tastes and opinions about a skater. For example, calling a spiral "ugly", a skater's artistry not "genuine" - I just think it could have been expressed better and in a less pejorative sense. In addition, there is plenty of purpose to YuNa's movements - sure they might not be to your taste - but there is purpose nonetheless whether we find them appealing or not. I don't find Carolina's Bolero to be particularly interesting, but if her artistry moves you then that's wonderful.

I respect your opinion about Yu-Na and I greatly, greatly, greatly admire Mao for all her beautiful qualities, for the record.

I do agree that YuNa's Les Mis does leave a lot to be desired in terms of the music cuts (a bit disjointed, don't you think) and her footwork but hopefully she has worked on those elements. I do think it's too early to say whether her programs this season are good or poor because they have not been skated to its fullest potential (or even against stiff competition).

(As for the portrayal of pain and loss - I do think, for me at least - that it adds a special something to a skater's programs. For that reason Joannie's 2010 Vancouver skates will always rank among my favourites, forever and always).

[Moment]

Suzuki had by far the best FS, and deserved to win the overall competition here. I really enjoyed her performance despite a 1A mistake and her flutz being pretty obvious. Well done.

[yuki]

It wasn't her first time. She skated it at the Grand Prix and Grand Prix Final and at Japan Nationals. She is undefeated with it so far. Has she skated it clean yet? I know she didn't at her Grand Prix events.

It was her first time attempting this kind of difficulty (3A, 3-3, 2A-3T) in the FS this season. But as usual, people see what they want to see.

[skatel80]

Wow did I miss something , was yuna competing here? I mean I think she is incredible and all but is it necessary for her to become the focal point in every thread?.....just saying

[Laughing Man]

Well, I don't care about her score because this 4CC took place in Japan :P

Yeah sure...so Carolina will win all future Intl comps held in Italy and Kaetlyn will win Worlds next month cause they'll have it in Canada, huh? Oh, and I just can't wait for the next major Intl comp in China, cause according to your logic, my dear Zijun will definitely be on top of the podium!

I agree EXCEPT for one thing: Back before the COP system I used to get really ticked off when a skater was given credit for a triple lutz when they were really doing a triple flip. The LBO or RBO is a far more difficult edge to jump from, and the straight line flipping of the edge really made my blood boil. As far as the rest: There are huge and obvious UR's, those obviously need to be dinged. But if you have to watch in slo mo again and again...well, that is absurd.
As far as Mao, Akiko: both short programs were, in my old fashioned judgement: 6.0 After Midori and Kristy, I feel like the skating world went through a long period of mediocrity-five steps backward really-but Yuna and Mao have established a new standard.

I totally respect and understand what you're saying. I'm not in favor of the 6.0 system at all, never was. Even with some rules I'm not so fond of, CoP is still a much better system overall. It made it possible for fans to have more insight and constructive debates which I do think is a very good thing for the sport. The only problem I have is that some people get too caught up with certain rules, which can easily lead them into missing the whole picture of a well done performance. If some prefer to go on playing 'judge' rather than appreciating this sport as one of the audience, fine go ahead. That's only going to take away alot of the pleasures and joys this sport can offer from them.

How do I know? Because I have seen Kaetlyn Osmond skate, and I've also seen Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Ashley Wagner, Akiko Suzuki, Carolina Kostner, and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva skate. Top 5 isn't a lock for anyone except for Yuna and maybe Carolina. And all five of the above mentioned are head-and-shoulders over Osmond.

I disagree. Top 5 isn't a lock or anyone, period. How many times have we seen the best of skaters suddenly melt down losing wins and dropping from ranks which we predicted were rock solid for them? No skater has a lock for anything however good they were in the past, however good they currently are. Plus there's always room for nice surprises!

It wasn't her first time. She skated it at the Grand Prix and Grand Prix Final and at Japan Nationals. She is undefeated with it so far. Has she skated it clean yet? I know she didn't at her Grand Prix events.

If you're talking only about the music and the basic program, yes, it wasn't her first time. But if you haven't noticed ( ), she dramatically changed her layout this time into a much difficult level than before. So in that sense, it was her first time. Check the protocols if you're not capable of distinguishing jumps by sight.

I get that YuNa has never really been your favourite but I think one's choice of words could be more... shall we say, diplomatic in terms of offering your personal tastes and opinions about a skater. For example, calling a spiral "ugly", a skater's artistry not "genuine" - I just think it could have been expressed better and in a less pejorative sense.

I can't agree more. I hate seeing words like 'ugly' or 'not genuine' used to evaluate any skater. In addition, although I prefer Mao's style rather than Yuna's, I have never ever felt that Yuna lacks artistry. She is totally divine and exciting on the ice with great skills. Whether her performances are moving or not may be a different issue though; that depends alot on preferance and I suppose, favoritism (we all have that don't we?). Still, Yuna is obviously on a higher plane compared to most skaters in both skill and artristry. I find it hard to believe some people have trouble seeing that even if they're not a fan in particular (like myself). However, after seeing her pros for this season, I had to admit I expected a bit more. Yuna isn't the problem, it's just the choreos. As talented as he is, Wilson didn't bring out the best in her this time. No wonder so many people want her Arirang back. I kind of wish she'd work with another choreographer next season...like Camerlengo for instance. But oh well, I'm a Camerlengo freak so I'd recommend most skaters to work with him. Besides, I've seen Yuna perform her new pros only twice this season, so maybe my impressions on them might change at Worlds.

Can't wait for Worlds already!

[Li'Kitsu]

It was her first time attempting this kind of difficulty (3A, 3-3, 2A-3T) in the FS this season. But as usual, people see what they want to see.

Isn't it weird? This was a very good competition, yet right after Mao skated, one of the first statements was "Oh, huge - but I think Yuna can beat that! Do others think so too?".
You even get reminded about how Mao won't win against Yuna anyway, or how better Yunas artistry is (stupid question: aren't body lines, tension and stretch a good part of what is called artistry in figure skating?).
Yuna didn't skate here, and this thread is too discuss what happened here at 4CC. There are by far enough threads for people who want to go on a second Yuna vs. Mao battle round.

There was even the funny statement "Mao has seldom done 8-triple programms" Maybe I just didn't get the joke, but... hey, what an awful skater Mao is for not doing what no other woman accomplished in history so far, a 8-triple programm.

[AlexRus]

There was even the funny statement "Mao has seldom done 8-triple programms" Maybe I just didn't get the joke, but...

Did anybody of Ladies ever perform 8-triples FS?
I don't remember that any Lady did it, I believe it is first at FS history.

[seniorita]

Is there a chance Akiko keeps this program for Sochi? it may be one of my favs ever. I wish she would skate this to Olys.

[Ambivalent]

Isn't it weird? This was a very good competition, yet right after Mao skated, one of the first statements was "Oh, huge - but I think Yuna can beat that! Do others think so too?".
You even get reminded about how Mao won't win against Yuna anyway, or how better Yunas artistry is (stupid question: aren't body lines, tension and stretch a good part of what is called artistry in figure skating?).
Yuna didn't skate here, and this thread is too discuss what happened here at 4CC. There are by far enough threads for people who want to go on a second Yuna vs. Mao battle round.

There was even the funny statement "Mao has seldom done 8-triple programms" Maybe I just didn't get the joke, but... hey, what an awful skater Mao is for not doing what no other woman accomplished in history so far, a 8-triple programm.

I totally agree with your assessment. Some people just have a hard time seeing the wonderful qualities in both skaters and turn it into a war between fan bases. As for me, I LOVE Mao going for her 3A and 3F-3Lo and with this sort of technical content she will be very hard to beat at Worlds indeed. Go Mao!

[MaiKatze]

Is there a chance Akiko keeps this program for Sochi? it may be one of my favs ever. I wish she would skate this to Olys.

I adore the O program, I really do. But I want her to have two new programs for Sochi. It will be her last season, the last time we will actually see her in competition, I want to see two more amazing programs for Akiko. It is such a joy to watch her. Her programs last season, especially her SP, were amazing, too. I have no doubt she can produce two more Olympic-worthy programs. Akiko & Camerlengo are a match made in heaven.

I know it is unfair, but I think it was the biggest of luck for Akiko that Miki Ando decided to take two seasons of. I honestly don't know what will happen when Miki returns, but Akiko had such progress in what for most women would be the final days of their careers. She probably wouldn't be able to get the love, if Miki Ando was still there. And Miki always looked so stiff and nervous, while, like a lot of posters here already said watching Akiko is so much more satisfying. I don't want to bash Miki, no, but these thoughts just came to mind when thinking of the japanese ladies. Sorry for being off-topic.

[hurrah]

Awww, I get that Akiko's skate is emotionally satisfying, but I do feel bad for Miki sometimes! She must be one of the most under-appreciated jumpers in recent figureskating history. One of the few skaters who could do both flip and lutz without any edge call worries, has a beautiful loop, great salchow, toe loop just fine. She was actually a better all-round jumper than Yuna, Mao or any of her contemporaries.

And she had/has a quad! The only female skater in history to ever have a quad jump ratified. Who cares if it's under-rotated by CoP standards. Find me another female skater who can do an under-rotated quad jump, will ya.

ETA:

If only CoP had gotten the jump value down pat from the beginning. Quad salchow is worth 10.5 with under-rotated quad salchow 7.4, which is higher than 3lz (6.0) or under-rotated triple-axel (6.0). Miki might have been tempted to continue training for a quad salchow, and figure skating history might have been different.

[Ambivalent]

Awww, I get that Akiko's skate is emotionally satisfying, but I do feel bad for Miki sometimes! She must be one of the most under-appreciated jumpers in recent figureskating history. One of the few skaters who could do both flip and lutz without any edge call worries, has a beautiful loop, great salchow, toe loop just fine. She was actually a better all-round jumper than Yuna, Mao or any of her contemporaries.

And she had/has a quad! The only female skater in history to ever have a quad jump ratified. Who cares if it's under-rotated by CoP standards. Find me another female skater who can do an under-rotated quad jump, will ya.

And with Ando coming back, one of either herself, Akiko or Kanako will miss out on Olympics. Sigh.

[hurrah]

The more I think about it, the more I feel for Miki. Those early years of CoP crapola really diminished Miki's career. She could have become legendary as the pioneering quad female jumper, but early CoP broke her will to train the quad, and now she's just a former World champion. Well, two-times World champion actually, which ain't shabby, but still, she gave up on her quad! I'm kind of upset about that because early CoP really gave her no other viable choice.

Anyway, I think I'm going off topic. Between Miki, Akiko and Kanako, jeeze, I don't know. I wonder if Miki's really gonna be able to make a come back after such a long absence?