4CC Ladies Free Skate

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Can we talk about Kanako Murakami some more?

She deserved Silver at this competition and she has now outskated Suzuki in all 3 competitions this season where they've been up against each other, IMO. It's really just these phantom < calls that are holding her back and I greatly dislike how she keeps being held down as the "3rd Japanese lady". Aside from the flutz, her skating is excellent across the board. Her transitions and spins are better than Suzuki's and her consistency is better at this point too.

Exactly how did she outskate Suzuki at SC and 4CC? At 4CC they were pretty much neck and neck in the SP (though Kanako's flip was tight, she did have slightly higher levels on spins), and in the FS, Suzuki landed 6 triples and Murakami landed 5. They both singled an axel. I know you're all hung up about these "phantom < calls", but they wouldn't have changed the result at 4CC if Murakami's URs were called clean. The 3F that got a UR call looked fine, but the second 3L was without a doubt UR'ed, and arguably her 2L was also URed in her 3-jump sequence. You nor I have access to what the technical specialist sees on replay, so we can only suggest that there were errors made, but ultimately it's their call and they are the ones qualified and with the resources to make that call.

Don't get me wrong.. I enjoy watching Kanako more than Suzuki, and even prefer Kanako's programs, but the only time Murakami has truly outskated Suzuki was at Japanese nationals in the FS.

It's been three separate competitions (if you count Rostelcom) with different technical specialists who have all marked at least three of Kanako's jumps as URed between the SP and FS. Three out of three times her 2nd 3L has been called as under-rotated. You can hardly call that coincidental. Also, why is her 3F-2A still in there? She hasn't hit it all season and it's a risk if she misses the flip, because then she'll have to take out the triple toe and put in the 2A to have an axel jump.

[chuckm]

I don't have the time or inclination to do exhaustive research on Murakami, but I do recall that Kanako got UR calls as far back as her debut year in the JGP, and she's consistently gotten URs ever since then.

Here was her FS from Worlds 2012: 3ze, 3lo, 3f<df, 3t+3t<, 3f^1a, 1a, 3t+2lo+2lo

[Laughing Man]

I don't have the time or inclination to do exhaustive research on Murakami, but I do recall that Kanako got UR calls as far back as her debut year in the JGP, and she's consistently gotten URs ever since then.

Here was her FS from Worlds 2012: 3ze, 3lo, 3f<df, 3t+3t<, 3f^1a, 1a, 3t+2lo+2lo

Oh so what? Her performances overall were well done, they were both passionate, speedy, and packed with energy.
Why do some people go on making so much or a big deal about URs, ignoring more serious mistakes like falls and pops which obviously distracts the audience much more from the entire program?

One of the reasons this sport isn't popular is because there have been cases where skaters with slight URs have ranked lower than skaters who fell, popped or stepped out. I'm sure that pleases all you tech-panelist wannabes, but the fact is, most people appreciate a performance with some URs over those with falls and other clearly visible mistakes. When they see a performance which moved them, but find out later that it wasn't higly scored as they expected because of some slight URs, it disappoints and frustrates them. I think those are the moments which lead lots of people off from the sport.

So those who want to go on babbling about URs, go ahead and satisfy your ego and arrogance; but keep in mind it's not going to do anything good for the sport at all. Besides, Kanako knows well more than any of you she has UR problems. She has been continuously saying in interviews afterwards that she's going to work harder to overcome them as much as she can. It's not like she wants to UR on purpose. Just give her a break and leave her alone, along with the rest of the skaters who have UR issues.

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh so what? Her performances overall were well done, they were both passionate, speedy, and packed with energy.
Why do some people go on making so much or a big deal about URs, ignoring more serious mistakes like falls and pops which obviously distracts the audience much more from the entire program?

One of the reasons this sport isn't popular is because there have been cases where skaters with slight URs have ranked lower than skaters who fell, popped or stepped out. I'm sure that pleases all you tech-panelist wannabes, but the fact is, most people appreciate a performance with some URs over those with falls and other clearly visible mistakes. When they see a performance which moved them, but find out later that it wasn't higly scored as they expected because of some slight URs, it disappoints and frustrates them. I think those are the moments which lead lots of people off from the sport.

So those who want to go on babbling about URs, go ahead and satisfy your ego and arrogance; but keep in mind it's not going to do anything good for the sport at all. Besides, Kanako knows well more than any of you she has UR problems. She has been continuously saying in interviews afterwards that she's going to work harder to overcome them as much as she can. It's not like she wants to UR on purpose. Just give her a break and leave her alone, along with the rest of the skaters who have UR issues.

I agree that her programs are lovely to watch with great energy and speed and artistry. But this is a sport, and if you don't perform technically clean elements, then you should not be as successful as those who do. Under CoP there are several skaters who wouldn't be as successful, like Kwan, due to URs and flutzes and the like, but it doesn't mean they're bad skaters... just not ideal for the current system.

I think people get hung up on UR for the reasons you said... their favourites are not winning in spite of seemingly lovely programs. Kanako is one of my favourites too, but I can concede her losing when she doesn't fully rotate her jumps, and it's good to hear that she can too and is working to improve that. Kanako is lucky that URs still get 70% of the value of the element. I think that's pretty fair for a jump that wasn't fully executed. And in many cases even if she weren't called as UR, she'd still not win.

[Bartek]

Exactly how did she outskate Suzuki at SC and 4CC? At 4CC they were pretty much neck and neck in the SP (though Kanako's flip was tight, she did have slightly higher levels on spins), and in the FS, Suzuki landed 6 triples and Murakami landed 5. They both singled an axel. I know you're all hung up about these "phantom < calls", but they wouldn't have changed the result at 4CC if Murakami's URs were called clean. The 3F that got a UR call looked fine, but the second 3L was without a doubt UR'ed, and arguably her 2L was also URed in her 3-jump sequence. You nor I have access to what the technical specialist sees on replay, so we can only suggest that there were errors made, but ultimately it's their call and they are the ones qualified and with the resources to make that call.

Don't get me wrong.. I enjoy watching Kanako more than Suzuki, and even prefer Kanako's programs, but the only time Murakami has truly outskated Suzuki was at Japanese nationals in the FS.

It's been three separate competitions (if you count Rostelcom) with different technical specialists who have all marked at least three of Kanako's jumps as URed between the SP and FS. Three out of three times her 2nd 3L has been called as under-rotated. You can hardly call that coincidental. Also, why is her 3F-2A still in there? She hasn't hit it all season and it's a risk if she misses the flip, because then she'll have to take out the triple toe and put in the 2A to have an axel jump.

In fact these are not "phantom < calls". I have no idea why Blades of Passion claims on every occasion that her UR's were undeserved but thruthfully they WERE. If you look very closely where exactly she took off her flip you'll see that it rightfully got "<" mark. I know it might be deceiving because she goes straight through half of the rink but right before the take off she "twists" her left foot to the right so much that her blade is actually parallel to the side of the rink and from this very place we should start counting the rotations. British Eurosport version enables us to see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De6jLzgGhZ8 Stop the video at 6:20 and watch the set-up closely and then at 6:23 when she lands. It's clearly obvious that the jump is underrotated. Actually, she is lucky she doesn't get more "<" signs. Both jumps in her 3Lo+2T were so borderline that she could very well have gotten "<" signs had the celler been more strict. I don't deny that Kanako has interesting choreography, more transitions than Akiko who has none, and her spins are better as well but nevertheless she should not be winning with those unserrotated jumps while Akiko does fully rotate them. What's more, Akiko feels her music really well and is able to project the emotions to the audience on a whole different level than Kanako and in my opinion it makes up for the lack of transitions when we compare their PCS.

[chuckm]

How is it fair to skaters who perform well while fully rotating their jumps, if skaters like Murakami are given medals despite not meeting technical standards? Figure skating is a SPORT, not an exhibition.

Underrotation is not Murakami's only problem. She has a horrible pick technique (similar to Caroline Zhang's), she has a pretty bad flutz, and she has problems with her double axel (she singled both attempts in her Worlds FS and the one attempt in her 4CC FS). Interesting in that the 2a is a required jump in the Ladies FS.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Is it the 2A or is it an axel type jump? Because I thought it was the latter.

I think Murakami actually does quite well with her tango LP. It's just marvelously constructed, with beautiful peaks and moments (seriously, Morosov and Mishin should watch this program to see what effective posing actually is). But Suzuki is just an unearthly performer. The way the program builds and builds to the choreo sequence is beautiful. And of course, the choreo sequence itself is just ... flight. She's flying over the ice. The Skate Gods haven't been too generous this season, but I'd love to see her win Worlds.

[Mrs. P]

Is it the 2A or is it an axel type jump? Because I thought it was the latter.

I think Murakami actually does quite well with her tango LP. It's just marvelously constructed, with beautiful peaks and moments (seriously, Morosov and Mishin should watch this program to see what effective posing actually is). But Suzuki is just an unearthly performer. The way the program builds and builds to the choreo sequence is beautiful. And of course, the choreo sequence itself is just ... flight. She's flying over the ice. The Skate Gods haven't been too generous this season, but I'd love to see her win Worlds.

I think it's just an axel jump. If it was the former, she would have received zero points for that sequence.

I think Murakami doesn't get a ton of height on her jumps, so she tends to finish some of the rotation as she's landing, that could create some of the UR calls we've seen from her this season.

That said, I agree that it's a well-constructed program and I believe she is building toward a successful run in Sochi and beyond.

[Leonardo]

ITA. Congrats to all the medalists, plus Christina and Zijun for a fine skate (luv them both ).

I'm not going to praise Mao even though I most definitely would like to, cause I'm sick of some people labelling me here as a Maobot. But I will say one thing; even with the URs and the edge call, Mao's performances in this competition moved alot of people and I think that means something.

If figure skating performances do not touch our hearts, what's the point in watching this sport anyway? Yes, fully rotated jumps with proper edges should be rewarded more than those which aren't since this is a sport. But otoh, figure skating is also a performance. It's a sport in which the audience also plays an important role. That's precisely why there are PCS; scores which I believe can only be subjective even with guidelines. As they are human, the judges will hand out PCS based on their impressions on a performance, just like the audience will evaluate a performance based on how it made them feel.

IMHO, I am sick of some 'fans' debating whether a jump was fully or under rotated. It's close to impossible to make that out when you're in the audience watching the skaters live. The audience can be moved or be amazed by what the skaters do, even if there's a slight UR here and there. Falls, step outs or other visible mistakes will distract appreciation and can ruin a performance more or less, cause those kinds of mistakes distracts them from the performance, making the audience feel down and sorry for the skaters. In other words, they're pulled back into reality from the beautiful world the skaters are trying so hard to create on the ice. But if not DGs, some slight UR or an edge call will not distract them at all. I've had my share of seeing competitions and ice shows live even in the best arena seats, so I know this as a fact.

Some of you seem to enjoy watching slo-mo vids over and over to accuse skaters of URs and wrong edges. I find that quite meaningless to be honest. We're not judges, we're not tech callers, we're not even critics so what's the point? It makes me wonder if those who do so really love this sport or care about the skaters. I think we should try to accept the skaters based on how their performances touched our hearts a bit more. Many of the girls touched my heart in various ways in this competition, I'm simply grateful to them. I'm sure they're all aware of their weak points much more than we do, and are trying to overcome them to become a better skaters. So what's the point in critisizing them so harshly?

I'm not against debating or discussing how you all feel about about the skaters and their performances. It's fun and that's what fans do. But concluding what some skaters cannot do in the future, pointing out how bad they are at what they do, and trying so hard to convince others to think in the same way seems nothing more than ego based childish talk to me. I'm not saying all of you here are like that. But some of you certainly are. I truely hope the skaters do not bother to access this forum and read such posts.

I couldn't agree more.

[Blades of Passion]

Exactly how did she outskate Suzuki at SC and 4CC? At 4CC they were pretty much neck and neck in the SP (though Kanako's flip was tight, she did have slightly higher levels on spins), and in the FS, Suzuki landed 6 triples and Murakami landed 5. They both singled an axel. I know you're all hung up about these "phantom < calls", but they wouldn't have changed the result at 4CC if Murakami's URs were called clean. The 3F that got a UR call looked fine, but the second 3L was without a doubt UR'ed. You nor I have access to what the technical specialist sees on replay, so we can only suggest that there were errors made, but ultimately it's their call and they are the ones qualified and with the resources to make that call.

Murakami didn't land 5 Triples at Skate Canada, she landed 7 and one of them was underrotated. I don't need to see the tech specialist video, I've seen them before and it doesn't add anything extra. High-def, slo-mo captures of the performances are all you need. Moreover, tech specialists are NOT trained in jump science. Until the ISU starts to understand the full extent of the mechanics and actually put it in their training seminars, most calls are lacking in validity. Tech panels make snap judgements that don't have enough real analysis.

Anyway, that aside, I think Murakami deserves higher PCS for her LP than Suzuki does for hers. Suzuki's program is nice and the final footwork sequence is wonderful, but a lot of the program still feels like "required elements", whereas Murakami's program is not only more difficult (because of the transitions) but also more effective because almost all of the movement feels well-tailored to the music.

I rate Suzuki higher on PCS for the SP, but Murakami's harder jump layout and better spins put her ahead still.

[Laughing Man]

I agree that her programs are lovely to watch with great energy and speed and artistry. But this is a sport, and if you don't perform technically clean elements, then you should not be as successful as those who do. Under CoP there are several skaters who wouldn't be as successful, like Kwan, due to URs and flutzes and the like, but it doesn't mean they're bad skaters... just not ideal for the current system.

I think people get hung up on UR for the reasons you said... their favourites are not winning in spite of seemingly lovely programs. Kanako is one of my favourites too, but I can concede her losing when she doesn't fully rotate her jumps, and it's good to hear that she can too and is working to improve that. Kanako is lucky that URs still get 70% of the value of the element. I think that's pretty fair for a jump that wasn't fully executed. And in many cases even if she weren't called as UR, she'd still not win.

ITA with most of you say. If I gave you the impression otherwise, that's my bad. Kanako sitll has lots of issues not just URs. But I think it's fair to say she's progressed alot over the years, at least as a performer. I'm not in any way against her scored being deducted because of her URs. That's totally fair, and I'm sure she knows it. However, if it were up to me, I wouldn't be so eager to say some skater like Kwan and Kanako aren't ideal for the current system. I would say it's the current system which isn't ideal in rewarding the skaters the way they really should. I'm not against CoP, but alot of those little complicated rules concerning mistakes which are quite hard to make out at first sight, do turn many people off from this sport. While UR freaks are knocking themselves out playing tech-panelist, more and more people are losing interest in this sport.

How is it fair to skaters who perform well while fully rotating their jumps, if skaters like Murakami are given medals despite not meeting technical standards? Figure skating is a SPORT, not an exhibition.

Of course I know skating is a sport.
Plus I very well understand the difference between an exhibition and a competition. However, as I've written in my former post which Leonardo kindly quoted (thank you), this sport is not just a sport but a performing sport. It's full of artistry and entertainment. While the skaters aim in perfecting their skills, they also try to create beauty and pleasure on the ice to watch. If it's just a sport, why dress up in costumes? Why do they have PCS? Why do they even need music to skate to?
The thing I don't get about people like you, are that you go on and on nitpicking on URs and edges, while you don't seem to criticize or bother to analyze falls, pops or step-outs as much, which are more crucial in damaging a performance. I mean seriously, do you prefer a fully rotated jump with a fall over a slightly under-rotated jump well landed? I don't.

I think it's just an axel jump. If it was the former, she would have received zero points for that sequence.

I think Murakami doesn't get a ton of height on her jumps, so she tends to finish some of the rotation as she's landing, that could create some of the UR calls we've seen from her this season.

That said, I agree that it's a well-constructed program and I believe she is building toward a successful run in Sochi and beyond.

It was actually supposed to be a 2A, but she's never succeeded that bit throughout the season (yet). Kanako has been saying she's not good at axels all along, so I think going for it in a sequence is pretty tough for her. Hope she can do it right at Worlds...but otoh, I think it may be difficult for her to overcome problems concerning 2As as long as she's working with Yamada. Yamada is basically a good coach for juniors, but I do not see her as an ideal coach at senior level. I think it would do Kanako better to work with another coach at least for a while. She's been with Yamada too long and I don't see much more Kanako can learn from her.

In the same sense, I so hope the Chinese Fed would allow Zijun to have a foreign coach in the future. Someone who can exteem her charms and extend them into higher artistry, not to mention improving her skills which I think she still has so much more potential hidden underneath. Has any Chinese lady ever had a foreign coach before, btw? They do hire foreign choreographers I think, but coaches???

I couldn't agree more.

Thank you. I'm relieved to know that there are still fans who appreciate rather than criticize, respect rather than just evaluate skaters and their performances.

[FSGMT]

It was actually supposed to be a 2A, but she's never succeeded that bit throughout the season (yet). Kanako has been saying she's not good at axels all along, so I think going for it in a sequence is pretty tough for her. Hope she can do it right at Worlds...but otoh, I think it may be difficult for her to overcome problems concerning 2As as long as she's working with Yamada. Yamada is basically a good coach for juniors, but I do not see her as an ideal coach at senior level. I think it would do Kanako better to work with another coach at least for a while. She's been with Yamada too long and I don't see much more Kanako can learn from her.

In the same sense, I so hope the Chinese Fed would allow Zijun to have a foreign coach in the future. Someone who can exteem her charms and extend them into higher artistry, not to mention improving her skills which I think she still has so much more potential hidden underneath. Has any Chinese lady ever had a foreign coach before, btw? They do hire foreign choreographers I think, but coaches???

Yamada coached Midori Ito to her World Title and OSM, so I think that she is actually a good coach, it's just Kanako that has some technique issues... But maybe working with a very IJS-friendly coach like Orser could help her...

[volk]

Can we talk about Kanako Murakami some more?

She deserved Silver at this competition and she has now outskated Suzuki in all 3 competitions this season where they've been up against each other, IMO. It's really just these phantom < calls that are holding her back and I greatly dislike how she keeps being held down as the "3rd Japanese lady". Aside from the flutz, her skating is excellent across the board. Her transitions and spins are better than Suzuki's and her consistency is better at this point too.

As a fan I'm glad she's finally getting noticed. But I think her placement was fair this time. Akiko's presentation is still more sophisticated.

[Skater Boy]

I think we all know she has the potential; so hard though with compatriots so strong but I do like her programs and her genuine musicality.

[Laughing Man]

Yamada coached Midori Ito to her World Title and OSM, so I think that she is actually a good coach, it's just Kanako that has some technique issues... But maybe working with a very IJS-friendly coach like Orser could help her...

Yes, Yamada was great with Midori. But back then, Yamada had focused almost only on her. I'm not even sure if she had any other students at the time. Midori even moved into Yamada's house to train. The case with Kanako is totally different, and Yamada has many other students she has to attend to now. Plus as you probably know, Midori had much more potential when it came to physical abilities than Kanako. Kanako if more a dancer type skater compared to Midori who was purely athletic. They're totally different types of skaters obviously. The other thing is, Midori used to disagree on lots of things with Yamada which often turned into huge fights. Midori was stubborun, always knew what she wanted and wouldn't give in (that's what she said herself looking back on her competing days). When I look at Kanako, I get a totally different impression. She seems to trust and respect Yamada with no doubts whatsoever. Kanako never even chooses her costumes but leaves that all to Yamada. That's why I think it may be a good time for her to leave Yamada soon (well, I'm sure she won't leave her at least till Olys season is over though). I think when you're with a coach for too long trusting him/her on everything, a skater's other hidden potentials may be overlooked and wasted. Changing coaches can introduce skaters to so many more new possibilities. When Mao went to Tat she became capable of much complex footwork; those Masquerade years sure paid off, she's even saying that she's more confident about her steps than she used to be of her jumps when she was younger. Although there were some troubles in the past, Dai never would've become the skater he is unless he worked with Morozov either I think. Yuna never would've become as great as she has if she didn't work with Orser...and yes, maybe Orser would be the ideal coach for Kanako to help her with her jumps...