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Thread: 4CC Ladies Free Skate

  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    A technical specialist or technical controller is nothing more than the person the ISU has picked. I have done the actual ISU seminars and have done much more outside research than most of the people who sit on the post. Until the ISU clarifies their rules and streamlines their training, so that it is mathematically and scientifically sound with how jumps actually work, then there is little need to place much trust in what they call.
    I don't see how you can verify that the people have have taken the same ISU seminars as you haven't done outside research themselves. You're making a general assumption that because the seminars are wrong (seminars you took, at that...), judges and tech specialists are all trained wrong and didn't take other courses or do other research to mitigate these horrifically incorrect seminars. Are you a qualified judge or technical specialist or just decided to take these seminars for fun and then bash them after the fact as inferior to your own "outside research"? And what exactly is the outside research you've done and how can we verify that it isn't as mediocre as these ISU seminars supposedly are?
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-15-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    When everyone is taught wrong, it's hardly unthinkable.

    Last season at Cup of China she got unfairly slammed when her 3F+3T combo was complete and the 3Lo was only <, not <<.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmHMqUbvXc#t=5m00s That 3F+3T was not complete. She ends up clearly under-rotating the 3T. It's so obvious there... even the commentator acknowledges the UR.
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-15-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't see how you can verify that the people have have taken the same ISU seminars as you haven't done outside research themselves. You're making a general assumption that because the seminars are wrong (seminars you took, at that...), judges and tech specialists are all trained wrong and didn't take other courses or do other research to mitigate these horrifically incorrect seminars. Are you a qualified judge or technical specialist or just decided to take these seminars for fun and then bash them after the fact as inferior to your own "outside research"? And what exactly is the outside research you've done and how can we verify that it isn't as mediocre as these ISU seminars supposedly are?
    This.

    Also, if you have such problems with the system, why not become a technical specialist? If you went through the training -- I don't think convincing a bunch of fans on a skating board of the purity of your tech calling technique is the best use of such training....
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 02-15-2013 at 06:34 PM.

  4. #529
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmHMqUbvXc#t=5m00s That 3F+3T was not complete. She ends up clearly under-rotating the 3T. It's so obvious there... even the commentator acknowledges the UR.
    Yes it was complete. Look at where her toepick leaves the ice: slightly right of perpendicular to the "north" boards. She lands slightly right of perpendicular to the "west" boards. That's within the 1/4 turn allowance. The commenator doesn't outright call it as < either, only says it was "close". Which it was, yes! But it wasn't <.

  5. #530
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    From what I understand, the requirements for a tech specialist include having been a competitive figure skater as well as training. Technical controllers have to be judges.

    Just going to technical seminars doesn't put one on the same level as a TS or TC.

  6. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    From what I understand, the requirements for a tech specialist include having been a competitive figure skater as well as training. Technical controllers have to be judges.

    Just going to technical seminars doesn't put one on the same level as a TS or TC.
    This. Alexei Urmanov, Olga Markova and other well-known skaters have served as a technical specialists in recent years. It's not a bunch of random people who don't know anything about triple jumps making these calls.

  7. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmHMqUbvXc#t=5m00s That 3F+3T was not complete. She ends up clearly under-rotating the 3T. It's so obvious there... even the commentator acknowledges the UR.
    Yup. It was UR alright. You can she hooks the landing on the 3T. Also, I hadn't really noticed before but Murakami has quite a fug mule kick in her jumps!
    Last edited by Sasha'sSpins; 02-15-2013 at 10:16 PM.

  8. #533
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    I don't always agree with BoP's calls but re: Kanako's 3L(e)-3T, I agree it was very close and I don't think it should have been called as -3T<'d. :( Although when I play the slo-mo in stop-play-stop-play, it looks like maybe she did touch the ice a little short of the 1/4 end-rotation requirements. It's hard to tell since the video is blurry and it's hard to see where the ice starts.

    But the overall point that he is trying to make is - does it really detract from that element so much that she should get such deductions? Personally I still find the UR-calling draconian for the most part, across many skaters. I am ALL for deducting underrotations (e.g. 91-179 degrees short for <) when they are obvious to the naked eye, but when they are not, skaters should be given the benefit of the doubt and simply allow judges to give 0 or negative GOE.

    Kanako is one of those skaters who I find fairly consistently punished more than what I notice in real time watching her...whereas I have noticed instances of other skaters who were given a free pass upon doing the same--or worse--as the jumps she is punished on. And it seems to have suppressed confidence to continue to do her 3-3's, which is a shame, because as an overall skater/performer she is better than what her competitive record shows.

    Although here at 4CC I thought Akiko Suzuki deserved her Silver, even if I generally favour Kanako over her.

  9. #534
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Sorry to double-post, but on a different note, I find it grating and disgusting that now wrong-edge calls ("e") can have as little as -0.30, -0.20 deductions based solely on small -GOE calls from judges. 3Flutz can be worth 5.70, 5.80 points, whoooo. Worth more than a basic 3Flip done properly (=5.50).

    Just take a look at the protocols from 4CC, the top 7ish ladies who got "e" calls in the FS. I find that ridiculous, since these are issues of proper technique and execution of defined jumps. Meanwhile skaters are getting burned for underrotations that aren't all that obvious or disruptive where "underrotation" has an arbitrary degree of angle set by the ISU as well as individual calls from tech panelists.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 02-15-2013 at 11:00 PM.

  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    But the overall point that he is trying to make is - does it really detract from that element so much that she should get such deductions? Personally I still find the UR-calling draconian for the most part, across many skaters. I am ALL for deducting underrotations (e.g. 91-179 degrees short for <) when they are obvious to the naked eye, but when they are not, skaters should be given the benefit of the doubt and simply allow judges to give 0 or negative GOE.
    I think his point is actually that the end of the jump is the only thing that the judges are looking at, and not the extent to which the jump is prerotated. So for skaters who pre-rotate less, he wants to give the a little more leeway at the end of the jump. I don't agree with this because (a) different jumps generally have different amounts of pre-rotation (a salchow pre-rotates more than a lutz), (b) skaters typically prerotate the same jumps about the same amount (aside from toe axels), and (c) it becomes especially onerous on the judging panel to determine where every single jump took off and where it landed, as the determinations have to be made quickly to move the competition along. The tech panel is looking for the skate to be within a 1/4 turn of complete and I'm ok with that.

  11. #536
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    I think Kanako def change her jump layout and make it smarter. Like 3F+2T+2Lo,2A+3T,3Lz, x 2A+3T ,3Lo,3F,3S some of the junior are doing. She has trouble rotating both her loop and replacing with 2A+3T, she might be able to rotate it better. Or keep the 3T+3T as first jump while she has the energy.

  12. #537
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    it becomes especially onerous on the judging panel to determine where every single jump took off and where it landed, as the determinations have to be made quickly to move the competition along.
    It's really not difficult, as soon as you know what you're looking for. For any Triple Toeloop, Salchow, or Loop, you simply look at where the skater has left the ice and then measure "does the skater land at least 2.25 rotations past that point?"

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    The tech panel is looking for the skate to be within a 1/4 turn of complete and I'm ok with that.
    You can't have a defined end parameter without having a defined beginning parameter. That would be like saying "any company with a gross income of 1 million is sufficiently profitable", which is obviously ridiculous since costs can exceed gross income and it's NET income which really matters, ie - NET ROTATION.

  13. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Awww, I get that Akiko's skate is emotionally satisfying, but I do feel bad for Miki sometimes! She must be one of the most under-appreciated jumpers in recent figureskating history. One of the few skaters who could do both flip and lutz without any edge call worries, has a beautiful loop, great salchow, toe loop just fine. She was actually a better all-round jumper than Yuna, Mao or any of her contemporaries.

    And she had/has a quad! The only female skater in history to ever have a quad jump ratified. Who cares if it's under-rotated by CoP standards. Find me another female skater who can do an under-rotated quad jump, will ya.

    ETA:

    If only CoP had gotten the jump value down pat from the beginning. Quad salchow is worth 10.5 with under-rotated quad salchow 7.4, which is higher than 3lz (6.0) or under-rotated triple-axel (6.0). Miki might have been tempted to continue training for a quad salchow, and figure skating history might have been different.
    Sure, no problem...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1I5o96mmzw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mmZhBy1IXQ

  14. #539
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    My comment was a criticism of early CoP that was too draconian. So bringing up Surya Bonaly is out of context. If she'd had to compete in pre-Vancouver CoP, she would suffered as greatly, or even more than Miki. Her quad would have been downgraded, and her PCS would have been, what, something like 5?

  15. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Too bad there really wasn't much to see in her skating besides the jumps.
    And even those left much to be desired. That is why she was working on the Quad so hard back when (similar to Mao's work on the Axel, which is likely slowing the progress she should/could be making on fixing her other jumps, though I'm pretty sure she's limiting her repetitions on that jump for obvious reasons).

    The 3Lutz/3Loop combination in that video from 2008 CoChina was Under-rotated. It's hard to miss, because YouTube lets you play back that video at quarter speed (* 0.25) - judges at a CoP combination are probably using sophisticated Dartfish rigs with high end cameras with optical zoom and expensive computer hardware; they aren't going to miss that... Her 3Flip was never that great (odd considering her Lutz was quite decent, though she did take a longer take-off into it compared to the flip). Her easier triples were a little better. Her double axel tended to lean quite a bit, and the take-off was too spinny for my taste (almost a Lipinski Axel, but not quite). That being said compared to Asada her technique is better. No edge call on that Lutz.

    Ando also had some issues with URs (especially in her combinations) because while she was a bigger jumper than someone like Asada, she lacked the snap of, say... Tara Lipinski or Jenny Kirk, and got into her rotation at the top of her jump. She wasn't a fast rotater, and simply didn't rotate efficiently enough to eliminate UR issues with that technique. Her coaches needed (need?) to work with her on getting into her rotation quicker. If she had done that the loop would have been clean and she would have avoided issues, like her UR issues in Vancouver. With the way she rotates, she needs something like 2x the airtime Lipinski or Jenny Kirk needed to rotate any of their triples, and that hurts with back-end loop combinations because 99% of the time the loop is not going to be as high as a solo 3Loop or a 3Toe at the back end of a combination. Slutskaya would agree.

    The tendency of many ladies to rotate into the ice on their jumps makes it worse, as it makes the landing harder to control. If you aren't good at checking the first jump landing (and fast/efficiently, like e.g. Lipinski or Slutskaya) in a back end loop combination, then the landing edge will curve too much and you will be forced to fire off the second jump earlier/quicker than you'd deem optimal, which can result in a weaker (as in, lower/less air time) jump. Also, the rules are set up in a way that skaters can train to "legally" UR jumps, which if landing at 30 degrees UR in a tight position, exacerbates that issues (the tighter you are, the harder it is to check out the first jump and the quicker the landing edge will loop around, which means you may have to fire off the loop combo much earlier than you're optimally prefer to, so it will be significantly less powerful than you're like and you may have to pop/double it).

    We see this a lot in Men's field with Quads and Triple Axel combinations (where they are forced to double the second jump, when they intend a triple). Though some men, like Yagudin, were good at firing of triple toe back-end combos with little to no speed anyways - a loop in those situations would be near impossible. The jump mechanics simply aren't conducive to that, and they'd probably lean and be forced to step out or fall as a result of trying to muscle that jump that way.

    Ando faced lots of UR issues because of her tendency to delay rotation to almost the climax of the jump. This tends to work well when you're comfortable and your timing is on, also when you're feeling well, but when you get nervous or have other issues that force you to jump smaller/skate slower/etc. it can leave you in situations where you don't have enough time to fully rotate the jump. And... since Skating actually is a demanding sport, the issue tends (generally) to get worse as the program progresses (goes from "we'll give you the benefit of the doubt" to "obvious").

    Apart from that, Ando's PCS should be on the level of second group skaters, and her spins are terrible. Frankly, she would have done better under 6.0 around the time Sarah Hughes was competing. Back then they'd have had no choice but to ignore her URs and Top 10 skaters with bad spins and weaker (but not bad, per se) skating skills were par for the course.

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