4CC Ladies Free Skate

[SkateNater]

My comment was a criticism of early CoP that was too draconian. So bringing up Surya Bonaly is out of context. If she'd had to compete in pre-Vancouver CoP, she would suffered as greatly, or even more than Miki. Her quad would have been downgraded, and her PCS would have been, what, something like 5?

Her Quad Toe was as much around as the Quad Salchow from Miki Ando, which should have been downgraded as well.

You asked a question, I answered it.

Has nothing to do with CoP or PCS, really.

I do wish Ando had Bonaly's Spinning ability and flexibility, though...

If you know how jumping works, Bonaly's quad is even MORE impressive because her air position is so bad (from a top skater) that it isn't even funny. She tended to be quite square when she rotated (a bad position to land in for checking out of jumps, a bad position for rotation since she often was not rotating properly on her right side i.e. backspin position), which led to a lot of her landings being a bit off axis and not having any flow. That's why she had to swing her leg around a lot, to counter-balance the landing and force herself onto an edge. She did a lot to counter her own rotation and was still able to get it that far around. That is very impressive and a huge testament to her athleticism (since she tended to fully rotate all of her triples back then, and could to triple-triples as well as splits into triples, back flips into triples, etc.).

With better coaching, Bonaly could have been doing 2 different quads (Toe, Salchow) and quad toe combinations before Lillehammer rolled around (in addition to having significantly better skating skills and choreography).

As for the interim system being too draconian, that's your opinion. I think there is too much margin for error these days, and the penalties are not stiff enough for some things like falls, URs, and edge calls. It's to the point where a lot of skaters ignore fixing those obvious issues (cause it's on their protocol every time, especially the edge calls for Lutzes or Flips) and instead just don't repeat the jump in their program (Mao/Wagner/Osmond one Lutz only, Gold one Flip only). Etc.

[SkateNater]

Oh lordy, you know I meant 6:48 is where to see the combination in slow motion -- okay it starts at 6:50 -- thank you for being ridiculous. 6:52 is where she lands the flip and her toe pick clearly hits the ice before 1/4 turn on the exit of the flip. 6:54ish she lands the loop and that is definitely underrotated. I know you're adamant about these things, but the video shows it right there. And if you want to use a reference point, then really, Mao under rotated the flip and loop even more because look on the 3F where her left blade takes off as she picks (it's already started to rotate, so arguably her landing is even more under-rotated), and look where she pre-rotates on the loops -- although it's obvious that loops are done that way, since you're bringing up this nitpicky reference point 'logic', the 3L was even less fully rotated.

As for Murakami's underrotations, I agree that the first 3F did not look to be under-rotated, yes (though calling it as clean wouldn't have affected the result). The second 2L in her 3-jump combo looked to be under-rotated. And her 3L was without a doubt under-rotated. (and even if all 3 were cleanly rotated, the result would have stood).

If by reference you're referring to the flip jump taking off forwards... That's the way the jump is executed.

Slow down some Loops, Salchows, Toe Loops, and Lutzes as well. Feast your eyes. Almost all of them take off forwards or close to forwards. That has no bearing on that conversation IRT Mao's jumps. There is no pre-rotation on those jumps. Those are the jump mechanics. If she wants a concussion, however, she's free to try to get a backwards take-off on any of those jumps. Should be fun to watch, like a reverse Waxel.

The only way to get a jump off like that going straight backwards (or even close to it) is basically to jump straight up and try to rotate almost a full 3 revolutions. People don't even do single jumps that way, unless they're just learning them and even then a good coach will correct that.

The Axel takes off more sideways (usually about 45 degrees past forwards), but Mao's is almost backwards on the take-off. That actually IS a pre-rotation problem. I noticed she doesn't tend to do that on her Double Axels much, just the triple. So, she is obviously cheating the take-off to get that jump around (since the take-off pre-rotation is less likely to be checked than the landing).

I have noticed judges have a tendency to ignore obvious UR on double jumps, especially in combination and ESPECIALLY in 3 jump combos.

It actually was Worlds 2009 SP! However, I've watched her FS video many times, and I'm sure that the 2A+3T was clean, and so was the axel; the only UR jump was the 3-3... The judging has been pretty harsh with Mao in this competition, I think: with a generous panel, she would have scored around 210 I think!

Maybe the judges have started checking her Axel take-offs?

[let`s talk]

YOUR opinion, and you are a fan, not a technical specialist or a technical controller.

It's not the point. To me it sounds more like lame getting-personal stuff rather than a constructive discussion. The point is there's no definition of rotation in ISU rules in the first place. Therefore all those "< " look like punishment for the crime without having the definition of the crime. Stupid to say the least. And so ISU-ish: the field to use tech calls the way they want for a paticular skater at a particular event. Like at JN . One turn obviously should mean 360, so if prerotation takes place, it must count. Landing by law of physics takes place when the majority of body weight is on the land/blade, not just when the toe hits the ice while the body is still rotating in the air. All this (or what?) must be written in the ISU books, one way or another. Until then it will be questionable tech calls giving unjustice to skaters and food to cyber trolls on boards.

[Mathman]

Landing by law of physics takes place when the majority of body weight is on the land/blade, not just when the toe hits the ice while the body is still rotating in the air. All this (or what?) must be written in the ISU books, one way or another. Until then it will be questionable tech calls giving unjustice to skaters and food to cyber trolls on boards.

Mirai Nagasu (also Mao Asada, I think) is an example of a skater who gets UR calls for that. She reaches down with her toe-pick while she is still rotating.

About the need for more precise rules. this has also bugged me about the criterion for wrong edge calls. As far as I can make out, the "back outside edge" is a description of a properly done Lutz jump, not a definition. If it were a definition, then there could be no such thing as a wrong edge Lutz.

It seems to me that the idea is "everyone knows what a Lutz jump is" so we don't need to define it anywhere. You know, it has a long straight entrance (or maybe a shorter entrance), it happens in the Lutz corner (or maybe somewhere else) -- well, it's just all Lutzy, no one can mistake it for the flippy flip, regardless of take-off edge.

If the criterion is the clear establishment of "counter-rotation," what exactly must the skater do minimally to satisfy that requirement?

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes it was complete. Look at where her toepick leaves the ice: slightly right of perpendicular to the "north" boards. She lands slightly right of perpendicular to the "west" boards. That's within the 1/4 turn allowance. The commenator doesn't outright call it as < either, only says it was "close". Which it was, yes! But it wasn't <.

Huh? Rotation starts where her right foot is at 5:00, not where the vaulting pick leaves the ice. That's jumping 101. Otherwise toe axels would never be called as underrotated. And she certainly hooks the ice on the landing. I'm pretty sure most people on this board would say a jump like that is under-rotated, even if it's a close under-rotation.

Re: the -3's, that's not merited, I don't think. But she got -1's and 0's on that 3F-3T< anyways, because the judges recognized the combination was strong in spite of the under-rotation.

[SkateNater]

Mirai Nagasu (also Mao Asada, I think) is an example of a skater who gets UR calls for that. She reaches down with her toe-pick while she is still rotating.

About the need for more precise rules. this has also bugged me about the criterion for wrong edge calls. As far as I can make out, the "back outside edge" is a description of a properly done Lutz jump, not a definition. If it were a definition, then there could be no such thing as a wrong edge Lutz.

A Lutz off a wrong edge is a Flip. There is no such thing as a wrong edge Lutz. It's a Flip Jump. The judges, however, recognize that the skater is attempting a Lutz and therefore they need to be penalized for having not mastered the technique required for the jump, otherwise they'd actually be rewarding them for the lesser jump instead of penalizing them for incorrectly doing the harder jump.

On the flip side, a Flip off the wrong edge is a Lutz. Same deal. You shouldn't get more points for doing an incorrect flip (6.0 for a 3Flip with 'e' instead of a deducted flip, for example). You should get penalized.

Lutzes and Flips tend to use dispirate entrances because of the mechanics and take-off edges. Most people don't do Lutzes off inside mohawks or out of three turns. Most people don't do flips out of running back edges or back cross strokes. Because of the different edges, which drastically changes the look of the jump and their take-off mechanics, intent becomes obvious and therefore there is no need for such a definition.

It seems to me that the idea is "everyone knows what a Lutz jump is" so we don't need to define it anywhere. You know, it has a long straight entrance (or maybe a shorter entrance), it happens in the Lutz corner (or maybe somewhere else) -- well, it's just all Lutzy, no one can mistake it for the flippy flip, regardless of take-off edge.

The obsession with shorter, straighter entrances cropped out of the need for skaters to put harder jumps behind footwork in short programs (6.0) and later pretty much anytime (IJS) to milk the scoring system for all they can. It has actually exacerbated the issue with flutzes and 'e' flip jumps because skaters are not taught from a very early edge to take footwork into even single lutz jumps and coaches tend to ignore wrong edges until it becomes extremely difficult to fix that issue.

I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes it feels more comfortable doing flip jumps off an outside edge. Flipping the edge while being that square (much more square than a lutz preparation) sometimes tends to lend the jump an element of stability that you don't get form an inside edge, and the edge will flip when you try to apply edge pressure on the take-off (lateral ankle flex is noticeable on video in these cases). That seems to be what happens to i.e. Gracie Gold on her flip take-offs. It makes the take-off feel more stable for some skaters.

If the criterion is the clear establishment of "counter-rotation," what exactly must the skater do minimally to satisfy that requirement?

The back outside edge take-off of a lutz will do that for them, and if they're trying to stay super square on that jump the take-off will be weaker and they will have issues rotating a triple consistently.

One thing skaters learn early on is how to control edges, and how different edges cause your body to rotate. A left back outside edge (like a righty lutz take-off edge), for example, will cause your body to rotate to the right - against the jump take-off. This happens naturally so the skater doesn't really have to do anything other than hit the edge. The issues some skaters have is that they can't control that rotation and end up going too far back to get around, or their body squares them off. In both cases, the pretty consistent mental/subconscious work around is for the edge to flip to in inside edge and turn the jump into something easier - a flip (and they've likely been landing 3Flips factorably longer than Lutzes, so when you think about it it makes a little sense - doesn't make it any less invalid, though).

[SkateNater]

Huh? Rotation starts where her right foot is at 5:00, not where the vaulting pick leaves the ice. That's jumping 101. Otherwise toe axels would never be called as underrotated. And she certainly hooks the ice on the landing. I'm pretty sure most people on this board would say a jump like that is under-rotated, even if it's a close under-rotation.

Re: the -3's, that's not merited, I don't think. But she got -1's and 0's on that 3F-3T< anyways, because the judges recognized the combination was strong in spite of the under-rotation.

Rotation starts when the skaters picking foot leaves the ice. This goes for both edge and toe jumps (since both types take off from a toe pick). Where are you getting this information?

Toe Axels have nothing to do with URing. Toe Axels have to do with the actual take-off mechanics of a toe loop jump. On a TA the skater basically jams themselves with their picking foot turns and does an Axel jump off the toe pick. They don't even really look anything like a proper toe loop, so they're easy to spot (and a very hard habit to break, I might add... I've seen skaters suffer with trying to fix that...). Toe Axels are generally pre-rotated, not under-rotated (unless the skater doesn't rotate it all the way for the landing), since the toe pick tends to pivot past the point of a toe loop take-off. While a Toe Loop has a forward take-off the picking foot, Toe Axels are done with a (forward) Axel take-off (technique) and tend to pivot significantly past that (like an Axel jump). Also, the free foot doesn't tend to pivot back nicely on a toe axel. Most skaters will pick it up really early and bring it through like on an Axel/Waltz jump, which is why they're generally obvious to spot (i.e. Kimmie Meisner's).

Toe Axels have a lot to do with coaching at the lower levels as many coaches still use rather old teaching methods to teach these jumps (exacerbating the stepping up into a toe loop jump, for example). Usually skaters have no choice but to fix the issue when they move to doubles and triples (and quads are borderline impossible with that issue due to how fast you have to snap them), but some don't. They basically do a Single Toe Axel for 2T and a Double Toe Axel for 3T and call it a day.

[hurrah]

I think...

There can be a wrong-edge take off, because the difference between the lutz and flip is not just about the take-off edge but also about the trajectory of the edge as the skater sets up for the jump. The lutz should have a convex trajectory made by the outer edge, and flip should have a concave trajectory made by the flat of the skate up until the moment of take off when it tilts slightly inside. (http://iceskatingresources.org/AnAnalysisOfJumps.html)

So with a proper lutz take off, you will see the skater crisscrossing his/her legs to achieve the convex trajectory, and with the flip, the skater doesn’t need to do that. The concave trajectory is achieved naturally if the take off is on the inside edge.

So there can be a wrong-edge take off. The skater can set up the jump with the proper edge trajectory, and then, at the moment of take off, switch from inside to outside, or outside to inside, and what that does it to create an additional momentum/force to spring higher into the air.

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Rotation starts when the skaters picking foot leaves the ice. This goes for both edge and toe jumps (since both types take off from a toe pick). Where are you getting this information?.

I should clarify... the point of reference for rotation based on where the skater is squared up going into the jump and the not picking foot when the skater picks (because by then, the physical rotation by pulling in and turning has begun as she's picking. So in that 3F-3T, the point at which we should count rotations should be where Kanako's is riding her RBO edge into the 3T (with her foot pointing to the right) at the 5:00 mark. When she lands a fully rotated 3T, her foot should be pointing to the right as her RBO edge was going into the jump if she did a fully rotated triple, or at least the landing foot should be pointing towards the viewer if she's doing it with at least 2.75 turns. It's clear that her pick and blade are contacting the ice before it reaches that point on the 3T and hooks the ice. You could even tell by the loss of speed on the landing of the 3F that it would be difficult to get the flow and speed required to make the rotation without a slight cheat.

I agree that she's gotten some questionable calls, but this one in particular is one of the more certain ones, IMO. And yes, like Mirai, she has a tendency to point her toe down onto the ice resulting in occasional URs.

I am also aware that jumps are primarily rotated on the ice for a few degrees before going into the air, particularly edge jumps, and aware that the point of rotation doesn't start being counted when the skater's blade leaves the ice, so much as the direction the skater is gliding from as they enter the jump.

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Toe Axels have nothing to do with URing. Toe Axels have to do with the actual take-off mechanics of a toe loop jump. On a TA the skater basically jams themselves with their picking foot turns and does an Axel jump off the toe pick. They basically do a Single Toe Axel for 2T and a Double Toe Axel for 3T and call it a day.

A toe-axel is an underrotated jump. It's basically cheating the jump on take off. And there are a few skaters who come close to toe axels, like Meissner as you mentioned, who would likely get nailed for some of her triple toes as pre-rotated. A couple skaters also turn their upper body and look to the left/behind them as they're taking off their triple toes like Makarova and Corwin in their 3-3, and come pretty close to pre-rotating.

[drivingmissdaisy]

A toe-axel is an underrotated jump. It's basically cheating the jump on take off. And there are a few skaters who come close to toe axels, like Meissner as you mentioned, who would likely get nailed for some of her triple toes as pre-rotated. A couple skaters also turn their upper body and look to the left/behind them as they're taking off their triple toes like Makarova and Corwin in their 3-3, and come pretty close to pre-rotating.

Corwin is a skater whom I remember pre-rotated her jumps noticeably. Her body was turned backwards even before she picked into the ice, and her salchow also started off about 1/4 past what most skaters do.

[SkateNater]

A toe-axel is an underrotated jump. It's basically cheating the jump on take off. And there are a few skaters who come close to toe axels, like Meissner as you mentioned, who would likely get nailed for some of her triple toes as pre-rotated. A couple skaters also turn their upper body and look to the left/behind them as they're taking off their triple toes like Makarova and Corwin in their 3-3, and come pretty close to pre-rotating.

The Toe Axel is pre-rotated only if the take-off goes past forwards, which is a common issue with that jump since it is done with an axel technique - but that is not always the case because some skaters compensate by adjusting where they transfer their weight on the picking foot to avoid the prerotation. The issue with toe axels have nothing to do with pre-rotation. It has everything to do with a skater who doesn't know how to do a proper toe loop. They basically step onto the toe pick of the other skate and then step into an axel jump. They are doing, literally, an Axel jump. That's the big issue. An Axel actually rotates that much on the take-off, but the *intent* is to do a Toe Loop which is a huge problem. Those skaters cannot technically do a toe loop because they didn't learn it properly.

The pre-rotation isn't really a fault, it's only a symptom, and it's only a symptom when you are factoring in *intent* (the same way an edge change on a Lutz wouldn't be a problem if the judges ignored Intent and counted it as a Flip instead - if the jump was good apart from the entrance edge, it may even get +3 in that case).

As for the trajectory of the Lutz and Flip take-off. Not many people pay attention to that because a lot (most, even) of skaters do not use long LBO edge glides to go into their lutz jumps. They use LBI edges and "power pull" into the Lutz take-off (see Ando, Kim, Nagasu, Gedevanishvili, etc. Lutz take-offs - this helps initiate rotation). The take-offs are fairly short. That take-off is a bit more balanced for most skaters, generates more rotational energy on the take-off, and lends itself to a bigger (as in higher) lutz jump.

Meissner did get nailed for her toe axels.

I think you're thinking too hard about the whole pre-rotation deal. When you examine the jump technically, that ceases to be much of a factor. A Toe Axel is not a toe loop, so going past the point where a toe loop takes off isn't really pre-rotation. The only difference is that the judges recognize intent and deduct for the technical failings of the jump because if they didn't do this for Toe Loops, Lutzes, and Flips (Toe Axels, and Edge Changes) there would be a lot of issues with skaters having jump elements invalidated and running into Zayak Rule Violations. CoP has the deductions to deal with it, so they count it as a toe loop to K.I.S.S. and deduct accordingly.

Before a skater gets to Nationals level (i.e. while testing up) both they and their coaches are often pretty tipped on this issue (sometimes the coach is just inexperienced) because judges at competitions and tests will point it out to the coaches/skaters. In the age of instant video, it should not be that big of an issue, but a lot of coaches take the easiest route to triples, and these girls pay for it later when they are made uncompetitive with Edge Calls, TA Deductions, URs, and Low GoE values (Zhang, Nagasu being two very recent examples of this).

[SkateNater]

I should clarify... the point of reference for rotation based on where the skater is squared up going into the jump and the not picking foot when the skater picks (because by then, the physical rotation by pulling in and turning has begun as she's picking. So in that 3F-3T, the point at which we should count rotations should be where Kanako's is riding her RBO edge into the 3T (with her foot pointing to the right) at the 5:00 mark. When she lands a fully rotated 3T, her foot should be pointing to the right as her RBO edge was going into the jump if she did a fully rotated triple, or at least the landing foot should be pointing towards the viewer if she's doing it with at least 2.75 turns. It's clear that her pick and blade are contacting the ice before it reaches that point on the 3T and hooks the ice. You could even tell by the loss of speed on the landing of the 3F that it would be difficult to get the flow and speed required to make the rotation without a slight cheat.

I agree that she's gotten some questionable calls, but this one in particular is one of the more certain ones, IMO. And yes, like Mirai, she has a tendency to point her toe down onto the ice resulting in occasional URs.

I am also aware that jumps are primarily rotated on the ice for a few degrees before going into the air, particularly edge jumps, and aware that the point of rotation doesn't start being counted when the skater's blade leaves the ice, so much as the direction the skater is gliding from as they enter the jump.

Some coaches teach their skaters to rotate with pointed feet. Baiul, Cohen, Nagasu, and others do this. Others teach to flex the landing foot while rotating and point the free foot.

Neither technique has anything to do with avoiding URs, since you have to point your feet a bit to land the jump otherwise you can land on a flat and fall too far back on your blade. It's a matter of achieving the best air position for most skaters. Flexing allows most skaters to get a straight landing leg in the air, which is the side you rotate around in jumps - so it's important. Some skaters are fine pointing both feet. It's like how skaters who just learn spirals try to point their toes and don't realize their knee is bent, but if you have them flex their feet they have no issues extending through the knee.

All skaters will point their feet down, it's how you land jumps. On the toe pick so that you can place yourself on the outside edge.

Fact and the matter is, Nagasu doesn't always get the most optimal "tightness" in her jump air position, and she's too comfortable hooking her jump landings. That's why she URs. When skaters get nervous, they often fall back to old habits. It's a shame, because around Vancouver time frame she really looked like she was getting over that. She was landing clean 3Lutz/3Toes in the practices at the Olympics. It all went downhill from there.

She was sick at nationals with the Flu, and it likely had a factorable impact on her jumps. Even her spins didn't seem that on in the FS.

You can usually tell if Mirai URs (or is even close to URing) a jump by the way she lands the jump (the way she checks out of them). When you develop a reputation for URing jumps sometimes you don't get the benefit of a doubt (because most people won't question it anyways, its your rep). Coaches should take note of this "phenomenon."

[Mathman]

A Lutz off a wrong edge is a Flip. There is no such thing as a wrong edge Lutz. It's a Flip Jump.

I guess what i am complaining about is, pretty close to 100% of all skaters and skating official give lip service to that statement. And yet under the IJS the tech specialists seem to be following instructions to call some flips Lutzes and some flips flips. It should be spelled out in the rules exactly what an "attempted Lutz" is, since we have just admitted that we can't go by the take-off edge.

Lutzes and Flips tend to use dispirate entrances because of the mechanics and take-off edges. Most people don't do Lutzes off inside mohawks or out of three turns. Most people don't do flips out of running back edges or back cross strokes. Because of the different edges, which drastically changes the look of the jump and their take-off mechanics, intent becomes obvious and therefore there is no need for such a definition.

Exactly. There is no definition. If there are some three-turns before the jump the tech specialist yells, "flip." It has little to do with the take-off edge, which seems irrelevant in identifying the element. The official ISU designation is "flawed flip," not "Lutz."

I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes it feels more comfortable doing flip jumps off an outside edge.

See?

[Blades of Passion]

Huh? Rotation starts where her right foot is at 5:00, not where the vaulting pick leaves the ice. That's jumping 101. Otherwise toe axels would never be called as underrotated.

....

You don't get it at all. That's exactly WHY toe-axels (or swingy entrances close to it) should frequently be called as underrotated, but often weren't until a couple years ago and still aren't really looked at well enough...because the picking foot leaves the ice so late.

The typical toeloop will turn on the picking foot 1/2 rotation from the point of where the takeoff starts. It can be less or more, though. Anything more than 1/2 should be counted against the skater on the allowance given on the landing. Less than 1/2 should be credited to the skater for the point they need to land. Murakami barely turns on her toepick at all for the toeloop jump, she just plants it in the ice and goes up. The air rotation is what needs to be counted. She's getting just as much rotation as tons of other toeloops that don't get called <.