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Thread: 4CC Ladies Free Skate

  1. #556
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    As for the trajectory of the Lutz and Flip take-off. Not many people pay attention to that because a lot (most, even) of skaters do not use long LBO edge glides to go into their lutz jumps. They use LBI edges and "power pull" into the Lutz take-off (see Ando, Kim, Nagasu, Gedevanishvili, etc. Lutz take-offs - this helps initiate rotation). The take-offs are fairly short. That take-off is a bit more balanced for most skaters, generates more rotational energy on the take-off, and lends itself to a bigger (as in higher) lutz jump.
    A skating purist would maybe say that their jumps are not a true lutzes and CoP is allowing for a technical regression by not spelling out that the power of the jump has to be generated from the glide of the edge, and not in conjunction with the toe pick. (Though, when I see Elizaveta's lutz, and she generates the counter-rotation just using her left leg outer edge and simple toe pick and that is breathe-taking.)

    I think Carolina is the only female skater with the classic lutz right now, followed closely by Akiko and now, Mao. If CoP was really all about awarding pure classic technique, I wonder if these 'power pulled' lutzes would be called lutzes in the first place.

  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    A skating purist would maybe say that their jumps are not a true lutzes and CoP is allowing for a technical regression by not spelling out that the power of the jump has to be generated from the glide of the edge, and not in conjunction with the toe pick. (Though, when I see Elizaveta's lutz, and she generates the counter-rotation just using her left leg outer edge and simple toe pick and that is breathe-taking.)

    I think Carolina is the only female skater with the classic lutz right now, followed closely by Akiko and now, Mao. If CoP was really all about awarding pure classic technique, I wonder if these 'power pulled' lutzes would be called lutzes in the first place.
    But both clearly do not have a lutz at all...
    Last edited by Ambivalent; 02-16-2013 at 11:22 PM.

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    But both clearly do not have a lutz at all...
    They are known to flutz (i.e., they switch blade from outside to inside at the last minute before take off), using the pure classic lutz setup.

    Akiko always includes two lutzes in her FP and has actually had some of her lutzes ratified, so she can get the job done. Mao, while she has had two or three of her lutzes ratified, I would say that those were cases of the caller being lenient, and Mao has never done a perfectly executed pure lutz in competition. She has, however, said in interviews that she can regularly nail lutzes in practice, and I have seen at least one famous figure skating specialist publicly state that he saw Mao do a true lutz in practice. I think she is very close to getting her first true lutz ratified. The one she did at 4CC almost made it. If you watch her lutz take off in slo-mo, she starts on the outer edge, briefly switches to inner edge, and then goes back to the outer edge. She was, in fact, on the outer edge when she took off! And so, clearly, she is setting up the lutz properly, as it should be set up. Otherwise, her edge would not have gone back to the outer edge.

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    They are known to flutz (i.e., they switch blade from outside to inside at the last minute before take off), using the pure classic lutz setup.

    Akiko always includes two lutzes in her FP and has actually had some of her lutzes ratified, so she can get the job done. Mao, while she has had two or three of her lutzes ratified, I would say that those were cases of the caller being lenient, and Mao has never done a perfectly executed pure lutz in competition. She has, however, said in interviews that she can regularly nail lutzes in practice, and I have seen at least one famous figure skating specialist publicly state that he saw Mao do a true lutz in practice. I think she is very close to getting her first true lutz ratified. The one she did at 4CC almost made it. If you watch her lutz take off in slo-mo, she starts on the outer edge, briefly switches to inner edge, and then goes back to the outer edge. She was, in fact, on the outer edge when she took off! And so, clearly, she is setting up the lutz properly, as it should be set up. Otherwise, her edge would not have gone back to the outer edge.
    Can I have some references which define how a lutz should take off?

  5. #560
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    Can I have some references which define how a lutz should take off?
    This is a video of Kozu demonstrating the difference between a lutz and a flip. Unfortunately, it is in Japanese, but I think you can still get the gist:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_NLRbHWsU

    Here is another explanation in English. It doesn't explain the difference in trajectory (lutz: convex, flip: concave) but if you watch it's clearly there:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWmm4AKmgc

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    This is a video of Kozu demonstrating the difference between a lutz and a flip. Unfortunately, it is in Japanese, but I think you can still get the gist:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_NLRbHWsU

    Here is another explanation in English. It doesn't explain the difference in trajectory (lutz: convex, flip: concave) but if you watch it's clearly there:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWmm4AKmgc
    Yes, but I still don't understand why Miki's and Yuna's lutzes would not be called true lutzes? They have clear outside edges on their take off and by the video you've just shown me, force is generated also with the toe pick. I don't see how Akiko or Mao's would be called better technically...

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    Yes, but I still don't understand why Miki's and Yuna's lutzes would not be called true lutzes? They have clear outside edges on their take off and by the video you've just shown me, force is generated also with the toe pick. I don't see how Akiko or Mao's would be called better technically...
    Didn't the discussion begin with someone (not me) pointing out that ISU failing to make a full definition of what a lutz/flip is? Toe picks, ideally, should not assist generate pull force. Lutz jumps should, at least according to how they were classically defined, generate counter-rotational pull from the glide of the left edge in set up. The only thing the toe pick should do is to elevate the skater into air, allowng for the natural progression of the force which was created in the set up.

    The lutz done in classic style requires so much more edge control on the part of the skater than the 'power pulled lutz'. In the classic lutz, it's basically the left leg that is creating the force required for the jump, whereas in the 'power pulled lutz', both legs work in conjunction; it's almost like a toe loop in that respect. Maybe the 'power pulled lutz' can become another jump category.

  8. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Didn't the discussion begin with someone (not me) pointing out that ISU failing to make a full definition of what a lutz/flip is? Toe picks, ideally, should not assist generate pull force. Lutz jumps should, at least according to how they were classically defined, generate counter-rotational pull from the glide of the left edge in set up. The only thing the toe pick should do is to elevate the skater into air, allowng for the natural progression of the force which was created in the set up.

    The lutz done in classic style requires so much more edge control on the part of the skater than the 'power pulled lutz'. In the classic lutz, it's basically the left leg that is creating the force required for the jump, whereas in the 'power pulled lutz', both legs work in conjunction; it's almost like a toe loop in that respect. Maybe the 'power pulled lutz' can become another jump category.
    I see. I am not skating expert. What do the other skaters around here think?

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    They are known to flutz (i.e., they switch blade from outside to inside at the last minute before take off), using the pure classic lutz setup.

    Akiko always includes two lutzes in her FP and has actually had some of her lutzes ratified, so she can get the job done. Mao, while she has had two or three of her lutzes ratified, I would say that those were cases of the caller being lenient, and Mao has never done a perfectly executed pure lutz in competition. She has, however, said in interviews that she can regularly nail lutzes in practice, and I have seen at least one famous figure skating specialist publicly state that he saw Mao do a true lutz in practice. I think she is very close to getting her first true lutz ratified. The one she did at 4CC almost made it. If you watch her lutz take off in slo-mo, she starts on the outer edge, briefly switches to inner edge, and then goes back to the outer edge. She was, in fact, on the outer edge when she took off! And so, clearly, she is setting up the lutz properly, as it should be set up. Otherwise, her edge would not have gone back to the outer edge.
    interesting, i haven't paid attention to it, but it really wouldn't surprise me if it was like you said.

  10. #565
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    TBH, the lutz that Taka demonstrates in the first link appears somewhat 'power pulled' as well. I guess most men do that because they possess that muscular power to exploit. Even Plushenko :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA

    He's got quite alot of prerotation going there.

    And you know what, I've found that Evan Lysacek has a good 'pure' lutz (relatively speaking, that is):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbfhXScMxdQ

    I think the one demonstrated by Tatiana Malinina in the second link I provided is a 'true lutz'. And I think, purely from the physics perspective, strong-enough women ought generally be physiologically better suited than equally strong-enough men to do true lutzes because they will generally have bigger hips and therefore can generate a stronger centrifugal force.

    So in fact, if CoP actually started ratifying only the classical lutzes as lutzes and not the power-pulled one, only a handful of skaters would have ratified lutzes?
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-17-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  11. #566
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think Hurrah's explanation makes a lot of sense. What distinguishes a Lutz from other jumps is the counter-rotation. This is established by the long outside edge approach. In the case of a flutz, this counter-rotation is released prematurely. Thats why the jump is called, and scored as, a flawed Lutz and not a flip.

    But as far as I have been able to discover, none of this is spelled out in ISU rules or official instructions to judges and technical specialists. It just seems to be something that "everyone knows."

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Didn't the discussion begin with someone (not me) pointing out that ISU failing to make a full definition of what a lutz/flip is? Toe picks, ideally, should not assist generate pull force. Lutz jumps should, at least according to how they were classically defined, generate counter-rotational pull from the glide of the left edge in set up. The only thing the toe pick should do is to elevate the skater into air, allowng for the natural progression of the force which was created in the set up.

    The lutz done in classic style requires so much more edge control on the part of the skater than the 'power pulled lutz'. In the classic lutz, it's basically the left leg that is creating the force required for the jump, whereas in the 'power pulled lutz', both legs work in conjunction; it's almost like a toe loop in that respect. Maybe the 'power pulled lutz' can become another jump category.
    Both legs work in conjunction on both. Even in a classic Lutz the leg does basically the same thing. The only difference is that the take-off from the back edge is much shorter when you pull it, which results in a much easier to control take-off that is more conducive to multi-rotation jumps and much more conducive to jumping higher. It's also easier to take much more speed when gliding back on an inside edge and pulling to an outside edge take-off.

    The LBO edge is harder to control, and that's why the other technique has become so much popular. On that outside edge, especially at high speed the body can sometimes have a tendency to pull TOO FAR BACK making almost impossible (certainly very difficult) to get around to the other side on the take-off (a Lutz is more blocked on the take-off than a flip). The easiest way to counter this is to roll the edge over and turn the jump into a flip, which is much easier.

    But that's an issue that may go back years. Skating these days are different than when Denise Biellman did her triple lutz.

    Now, skaters are being trained to have 5 triples by the time they're Novice or Junior and certainly triple triples by the time they're Junior. A lot of younger skaters simply cannot control that take-off well enough to do a triple off of it, so the coaches have a conundrum. Either they can change it to a BI edge glide and pull into the lutz, or they can let the skater Flutz or be inconsistent on the triple lutz. I've already given reasons why that pull technique is superior to the long edge glide, and when you put it into perspective of a younger skater who isn't as strong as an adult, it is pretty clear why that technique has become to popular.

    Additionally, you can't do transitions into the jump with that long glide. There will always be some telegraphic with the Long BO edge take-off.

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah
    And so, clearly, she is setting up the lutz properly, as it should be set up. Otherwise, her edge would not have gone back to the outer edge.
    Setting a Lutz up is not the same as doing one. Her edge changes, the same way Cohen's edge changes on her triple flip. That's an automatic 'e' deduction and obvious for the judges to see.

    Actually, a chronic flutzer like Mao probably should try the power pull take-off to see if it helps her (maybe she has). She does have a pretty odd technique about her jumping though. At this point, I'm not sure there is much that can be done to salvage them.

    Whether you pull into the lutz or not the trajectory is still the same, cause the edge is still the same edge. The only difference is that you aren't gliding back on that edge long, so the outside edge take-off is much shorter. Trajectory really is irrelevant to the discussion :-P

    Some flip jumps have almost a straight take-off, but they're still flips (most coaches won't teach curvy toe loops or flips as it facilitates overturning on the take-off, similar to the LBO edge on a lutz, which can kill the jump as the upper body can end up ahead of the lower - sometimes see this issue on Loop jumps).
    Last edited by SkateNater; 02-17-2013 at 10:20 AM.

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    Can I have some references which define how a lutz should take off?
    Classic Lutz Take-Off:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucCMZffihRA

    Pulled:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fAA0_ZJUY

    ^ Chose that one cause the angle is perfect to see what we're talking about. Notice she's on a flat or shallow inside edge and then does a power pull into her outside edge take-off.

  15. #570
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    Actually, a chronic flutzer like Mao probably should try the power pull take-off to see if it helps her (maybe she has).
    She did learn the power pull take-off from Tatiana a season before Vancouver Olympics, and got one or two ratified doing it like that before she gave up on practicing it, choosing to concentrate on keeping her triple-axel and flip jump. (It was a most terrible season for Mao as she kept on losing what jumps she had with a small growth spurt she experienced.) I understand that power pull take-off lutzes are far easier to master than the classic lutz. Miki mastered hers in six months, I understand. Now, Mao is attempting to master the classic lutz set up. You may say that setting up a lutz is not the same as doing one, but CoP judges are giving progressively less minus GOEs on her lutz attempts, so it must be that judges generally see the setup as an integral part of the jump. Whether she will completely master it before Sochi is something that only time will tell. But in any case, even if someone can do a true lutz, they're probably only able to nail it maybe half the time anyway, as it seems like a totally crazy thing to demand a skater to do, to counter-rotationally generate centrifugal force that is strong enough to enable three turns in the air using only one leg while skating backward. It sounds more difficult than a triple-axel take off, to be honest.

    Anyway, the idea that both legs are allowed to work in conjunction (to create counter-rotation, I assume, is what you are asserting) to achieve a true lutz is not supported by what is written in http://iceskatingresources.org/AnAnalysisOfJumps.html, which is written by Claude Sweet (USFS Gold Free Skating and MITF, International Dance Test Judge). He says:

    The flip is performed on a shallow inside or flat edge. Some skaters have become sloppy performing their forward outside 3 turn into the takeoff. Instead of a 3 turn, they are performing an outside rocker, which puts them on an outside edge and receives an “edge” deduction.
    It is a major error for a skater to pivot to forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air.
    Lutz was named after Austrian skater Alois Lutz who performed the jump in 1913.
    Today for a Lutz to get full credit in competition it must meet the definition as:
    Lutz jump must start on a back outside edge of skate without and change of edge, the skater inserts the toe pick solidly into the ice and the toe pick does not turn on the ice prior to springing into the air and rotating in the counter rotational direction, followed by landing on a back right outside edge.
    It is a major error for a skater to pivot forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air.
    So the toe pick is not supposed to help generate further centrifugal force than has already been generated by the outer-edge glide set up. Its only physiological purpose can only be but to serve as a center point for the centrifugal force that was created by the left leg glide to aid elevation into the air. ...I think.

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