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Thread: 2013 4cc Free Dance

  1. #316
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    ^^ Well I hope we never see dancers dressing like that again. I wasn't offended by the skin showing, I was offended by the ugly.

  2. #317
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    I don't know if you can say that the majority of female ice dancers were ever quite as hookerific as Ms. Grushina, but point taken.

  3. #318
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    There was a great deal of unhappiness with the Shibs and with the rule at the time of CoR. However, less people are Shib fans, so there was less discussion. Also, clearly the Shib's scores suffered a great deal at the time and finished fourth, behind a team just up from juniors, so people who felt they should finish off the podium for interrupting the program had nothing to complain about...they had finished off the podium.

    This is an old argument. Many people felt the pair team of Zhang & Zhang should have been more penalized in the 2006 Olympics rather than going on to win silver after Zhang Dan's horrific fall on a throw quad.

    This is the third time we've seen the way this rule works (or doesn't work), and it's no wonder people want the rule changed; there was an outcry on the boards all 3 times, less with the Shibs because their scores were affected, than with V&M and the Zhangs, whose score appeared unaffected.

    That's one thing.

    But clearly Tessa had a leg cramp, or the lift would have gone up.

    Clearly it was Tessa and not Scott, because if you look at the mechanics of that lift, she's the one that dives into a handstand on his leg, and she didn't do it.

    It is a fact that Tessa has unfortunately had to know how to skate through pain for a long time; no one should be surprised that she can do it.

    So I do not like to see unsourced rumors that they were faking an injury.

    But also, I think the rule needs some changes, too. Skating is a sport, after all.
    Thank you Doris!

  4. #319
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Interestingly, Grushina has no skin showing at all. She just has a tan T-shirt on, with white splotches.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Does the "something different" have to be vulgar? There were lots of innovative moves they could have done other than face-to-crotch and hand-to-thigh.
    Absolutely..and the result would have been classier, more creative and sophisticated. I respect that V/M are trying to take a risk with their interpretation of Carmen, but I think that such a blatantly sexual presentation misses the mark and ultimately isn't even all that creative. Controversial - yes, but it's far more creative to suggest sexuality in an intriguingly nuanced manner, rather than spell it out so literally for the audience.

  6. #321
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    Yes, the ice dance costumes in the past were quite revealing, but there are now rules in place to prevent that kind of sensationalism. But even though the costumes were revealing, the dancers weren't doing anything explicitly sexual. IIRC, Navka/Kostomarov skated to Carmen one season with nothing controversial in their routine.

  7. #322
    Keepin' it real gsk8's Avatar
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    A journalist should appear impartial, at the very least publically.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    This interpretation of Carmen is not about gracefulness. I'm glad it's not, because we all know they know how to skate gracefully. It was time for something different.
    Actually, I agree. This take on Carmen is quite innovative. Tessa in black is kind of a Goth Carmen, both an agent and a victim of fate, or something like that.

    Maybe next time she will try the more traditional operatic approach to the character:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSffQBESp4Q

  9. #324
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    Winton Dean, Bizet's biographer, writes that "Carmen is redeemed from any suspicion of VULGARITY by her qualities of courage and fatalism so vividly realised in the music".


    In recent productions, directors seems to have gone in a different direction.
    Last edited by Icey; 02-13-2013 at 11:45 PM.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Winton Dean, Bizet's biographer, writes that "Carmen is redeemed from any suspicion of VULGARITY by her qualities of courage and fatalism so vividly realised in the music".
    That is in reference to the character Carmen from the opera. As we keep being told, what V/M are doing has nothing much to do with the opera Carmen.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    How do you react to the leg rubbing at the 0.40 mark? A little too blatant for my taste, but daring. There are two other moves in the program which strike me the same way. I guess they are trying to push the envelope.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGEJKyFoNSo
    Love it. Loaded with meaning and it's just so heightened and bold.

  12. #327
    Custom Title leafygreens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    This is an old argument. Many people felt the pair team of Zhang & Zhang should have been more penalized in the 2006 Olympics rather than going on to win silver after Zhang Dan's horrific fall on a throw quad.
    This is why V/M took unfair advantage of the break rule. They did not fall horrifically during the routine as Zhang did. I'm sure Tessa is in pain a lot, but not as horrifically as a pairs fall. Tessa's is a recurring injury that did not occur during the performance, which falls under the category of lack of readiness/stamina. Zhang & Zhang were justified in stopping and restarting without penalty. If it's not clear to the naked eye that someone has an injury, it needs to be explained to a judge or medical official. Tessa didn't do anything to indicate injury, she just skated around to the boards with big eyes and characteristic silence while staring at her coach. There's no guarantee that anything was actually wrong with her.

    What V/M did is no different than a singles skater going into a jump, stopping, skating over to the boards, shaking out their legs and continuing the program.

    With the logic of quasi-medical stoppages going unpenalized, then Ashley Wagner should have gotten extra points for injuring herself at GPF but continuing the program.
    Last edited by leafygreens; 02-14-2013 at 03:31 PM.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    This is why V/M took unfair advantage of the break rule. They did not fall horrifically during the routine as Zhang did. I'm sure Tessa is in pain a lot, but not as horrifically as a pairs fall. Tessa's is a recurring injury that did not occur during the performance, which falls under the category of lack of readiness/stamina. Zhang & Zhang were justified in stopping and restarting without penalty. If it's not clear to the naked eye that someone has an injury, it needs to be explained to a judge or medical official. Tessa didn't do anything to indicate injury, she just skated around to the boards with big eyes and characteristic silence while staring at her coach. There's no guarantee that anything was actually wrong with her.

    What V/M did is no different than a singles skater going into a jump, stopping, skating over to the boards, shaking out their legs and continuing the program.

    With the logic of quasi-medical stoppages going unpenalized, then Ashley Wagner should have gotten extra points for injuring herself at GPF but continuing the program.
    The case of the Zhangs was different. They recovered and skated practically clean, including a 2A+3T immediately after the fall/break. After Shen/Zhao had an imperfect SP and erred on both both SBS jumps in the free, I thought silver was a fair result for the Zhangs (who were given lower PCS than S/Z and Pang/Tong, and much lower than Tot/Mar). I'm still astounded that Hao Zhang did 2A+3T when most singles women wouldn't attempt any combination like that at the 2006 Olympics. Gedevanishvili was the only other woman to do a XX+3T.

    In the case of V/M, the interruption wasn't unfair, because it was likely a contributing factor to their loss. Sure, the lift might have been bailed, and repeating it got those points back, but the interruption -- particularly severe in ice dance when you're trying to create a mood and performance -- was a significant hit to their PCS. I don't think the lift was started, as in she was lifted into the air, so repeating it was okay... at any rate, even with the lift omitted, the result would have still been the same.

  14. #329
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    This is why V/M took unfair advantage of the break rule.
    I don't think it's really accurate to say they took unfair advantage of it- who knows. I do agree though, as many others have said, that a break has have more heavy penalties associated with it and be more transparent.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I don't think it's really accurate to say they took unfair advantage of it- who knows. I do agree though, as many others have said, that a break has have more heavy penalties associated with it and be more transparent.
    I wonder about athlete safety. If a break has penalties attached, what happens if one of the athletes gets injured but doesn't stop because he/she doesn't want to incur the penalty? Let's say right before a lift during the FD at Sochi Olympics, Charlie White gets a severe leg cramp. D/W are just behind V/M in the standings, and they know the penalty will blow any chance of winning. Should he continue to lift Meryl with the very real chance that he could cause serious injury to both Meryl and himself? What do you think an athlete who has trained his entire life to win a gold medal at the Olympic Games would do at that moment? Let's also say Ice Dance gold is the U.S.'s only real hope for a gold medal in figure skating, and the pressure on D/W to win is huge.
    Last edited by all that; 02-14-2013 at 09:56 PM.

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