02-14-2013, 10:27 PM
One thing I know for sure---Charlie wouldn't say Meryl was the one with the leg cramp.
02-14-2013, 10:37 PM
Here is another famous example. At the 1998 World Pro, Todd Eldredge fell on a triple Lutz. He hit the ice so hard that he broke a cufflink. A few seconds later he noticed the cufflink on the ice. He stopped the program and went over to the referee's table to show the panel that there was a hazard on the ice.
Assistant referee Alexander Lakernik (now head of the ISU technical committee) gave Eldredge one of his own cufflinks. Eldredge was asked if he wanted to pick up the program from before or after the triple Lutz attempt. Todd went with before. He nailed it on the second attempt and finished in second ahead of Rudy Galindo and Kurt Browning. (Alexei Yagudin won.)
Last edited by Mathman; 02-15-2013 at 03:24 AM.
02-15-2013, 12:32 AM
Excellent point. Safety of the athletes is paramount & figure skating can dangerous. IMO the ISU are correct in eliminating penalties. These skaters spend years/months/hours perfecting their programs & if an injury or equipment malfunction suddenly occurs, it's only fair there's some leeway & flexibility rather than punitive rigidity. Stuff happens.
Originally Posted by all that
02-15-2013, 01:42 PM
Oh, no, I really don't think you want to ELIMINATE penalties - what's left there - relying on the athelets' sense of honor to prevent abusing of this "leeway and & flexibility" ? This is a sport after all and risk is part of it, like you said, stuff happens. If you have decided to commit to it, you should accept certain degree of risk and accountability. I agree there should be some measure for safety, but not like this.
Originally Posted by Ice Diva
02-15-2013, 02:07 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
I'd probably put at least a one point penalty. Maybe 2. Or maybe on a sliding scle, depending on how long the interruption is.
02-15-2013, 02:35 PM
I think at least there should be more transparency and a time limit on the interruption (or perhaps sliding scale as you say). I think the skaters should have to say what is wrong and that there should be atime limit for them to get their stuff together. I think a 1-2 point penalty is appropriate. I think safety is very important (and hope the skaters think so too!) but as others have said better than I could it's a sport. If you cannot do a program straight through, whatever the reason, a mild penalty is appropriate. If it is just one point that is far less than the 'real' penalty for a fall (taking into account negative GOE) and I think that is more than fair.
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
02-15-2013, 03:31 PM
I'm not disputing the idea of there being a point deduction, etc., but there is a time limit already -- three minutes, or else the skaters are considered to be withdrawn.
Originally Posted by tulosai
02-15-2013, 03:40 PM
I remember I think the 2006 Olympics and the Zhang's. I thought they should have forfeited their medals. They went for a big trick and failed and got hurt. I am not sure they got penalized at all other than the fall. This was not a fluke accident ie broken shoe lace, cuff link; they made a huge error on a throw jump.
02-15-2013, 04:48 PM
How much abuse have we seen? How many skaters have taken advantage of this rule as it now stands?
Originally Posted by qazwsx
02-15-2013, 05:13 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
I know of 3: Shibutanis, V&M, and the Zhangs. I don't think taken advantage of is the correct term, exactly; the rule was applied in their cases. I daresay it has happened at smaller competitions, but I haven't watched them.
02-15-2013, 06:25 PM
Would Tonya Harding (1994) and Noburnari Oda (2010) also be on this list? Though I think the latter got a deduction for a costume problem.
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
02-15-2013, 07:08 PM
Welcome, Tereska. Thanks for joining us. Post often, post long!
02-15-2013, 09:28 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Oda, I think, would qualify. Harding was an equipment malfunction, as was Todd Eldredge's cufflink on the ice(although these days, he would have gotten a costume deduction).
02-16-2013, 04:34 AM
I've watched it several times. They definitely looked like they were setting up for a lift but changed their minds, embracing and holding hands for a few seconds longer before actually stopping. I don't think they should have been allowed to start before the lift.
Originally Posted by figureskate
Agreed. Someone on another forum pointed out that in other sports such as track or gymnastics, you're not allowed re-starts for cramps.
Originally Posted by TontoK
I just don't know about this one but I absolutely feel they should not have been allowed to do that lift after they were rested. Nor should they have won the silver imo. But it's done. On to Worlds.
I just can't 'buy' this version of Carmen from V/M. Tessa has these big, beautiful doe eyes that just don't smolder enough for me. And when she spread her legs at some points it just looked vulgar to me not sexy. I hope they come up with something magical, and exquisite for the Olympic season. This isn't it, not for me anyway. And I hope very very much we do not see any stops from them nor any other Dance team at the Olympics. But especially not from them or any of the Americans.
Originally Posted by icebeauty
I'm not in love with D/M's FD "Notre Dame" just yet but it's growing on me. I still have seen nothing from them to match their enchanting "Bollywood" SD from the 2010 Olympics but their Polka SD is cute. I hope they can come up with something as enchanting as their "Bollywood" number for Sochi.
Agreed. When I get a leg cramp it hurts like the Dickens. I can barely stand or walk the first few minutes let alone skate as Tessa did. But well, it was her cramp not mine. I watched the footage yet again. You can clearly see Moir start to lift Virtue then they stop. The referee was very generous there. And again I repeat, I hope to Heaven this doesn't happen at the Olympics. It will not look good no matter what anyone says to the contrary if any skater/s medals with such a stop in their program and no apparent injury.
Originally Posted by hitchem
Yes but that was after their skate. It just looked strange when they stopped and she didn't appear to rub her leg, stretch it or anything. She was clearly trying to catch her breath on the sidelines and had a sip of water. That was about it before they went back to re-start their program. It's peculiar that's all.
Originally Posted by icefan1005
Thank you. I found nothing tasteful about such moves in V/M's Carmen program. It was disappointing to see. And frankly, at the start of their program at first view, I thought Tessa ran her hand down Scott's crotch, not his leg. Must've been the angle. I had the flu and was watching the screen sideways from my bed. Some of their elements actually reminded me a little of Bestemianova and Bukin's 1988 FD. I distinctly remember one journalist's review back then calling Bestemianova's constant 'squat & spread eagle' dance' elements 'vulgar' versus the sensual "Bolero" program by Torvill & Dean four years earlier.
Originally Posted by chuckm
I just hope and pray V/M come up with a much better program for the Olympics, hopefully something fresh and new that plays to their strengths.
And I hope they re-visit the rule for allowing such stops in skater's programs.
02-16-2013, 09:06 AM
I have a tennis friend who says that Djokovic is famous for "timing" his time-outs. I remember a story about two other players, my faves Sampras and Agassi, from some years ago. In a minor game, not a grand slam tournament, Sampras was overcome with a stomach ailment, and he was ready to default. Agassi said (I think he may have even addressed the crowd) that he didn't think he could count it as a win if he beat Sampras through default. So he offered to continue the game later or the next day (I forget which). At that time, I think Sampras won. Not that this story has any relevance to skating, but I always find it worth repeating.
Originally Posted by jaylee
As for Scott and Tessa, they're the best in the world, along with Davis and White, and I think that personal pride would keep them from using a medical time-out (if such a thing exists in skating) as a strategy. But they probably should incur some point loss if they stop.
Last edited by Olympia; 02-16-2013 at 09:09 AM.