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Thread: 2013 4cc Free Dance

  1. #346
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    Going through the comments on this page it seem that V/M's free dance definitely polarizing. Some love it and some are disgusted by its vulgar advent-garde appearance and that this season's transformation for them was a waste.

    We see f skating as a balance between art and athleticism. This routine is much of a work of art (compared to Davis and White who are naturally more about the athleticism and there is nothing wrong with that) and because of that, the way we have reacted to this routine is similar to when you go to a contemporary art museum and observe their displays and masterpieces. You adore it or loathe it.

    Their Carmen FD is like contemporary art- some appreciate it, some love it and some hate it...and this I think is the exact reaction Virtue and Moir want from this FD. They wanted to challenge what can be portrayed in a routine and what emotions and feelings they can bring from the audience.

    If Virtue and Moir decide to compromise this idea of art to get the levels and components, they will have a better chance at winning 2013 worlds but the impact they wanted of people expressing a tonne of emotions wouldn't be as resounding as they would like. However, if they keep their FD as it is, they will probably not but this program will really go down in history as something that pushed Ice Dance to uncomfortable heights. Bit of a catch 22

  2. #347
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    2013 4cc Free Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    Agreed. Someone on another forum pointed out that in other sports such as track or gymnastics, you're not allowed re-starts for cramps.
    Actually, that is not completely true. In women's gymnastics vault, the athlete is permitted one abort while running down the ramp towards the vault. There was one vaulter who aborted and restarted the run during the London summer games individual vault finals (she didn't feel ready). I don't know if there are other permitted situations in Gymnastics.
    Last edited by rvi5; 02-16-2013 at 10:29 AM.

  3. #348
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GF2445 View Post
    Going through the comments on this page it seem that V/M's free dance definitely polarizing. Some love it and some are disgusted by its vulgar advent-garde appearance and that this season's transformation for them was a waste.

    We see f skating as a balance between art and athleticism. This routine is much of a work of art (compared to Davis and White who are naturally more about the athleticism and there is nothing wrong with that) and because of that, the way we have reacted to this routine is similar to when you go to a contemporary art museum and observe their displays and masterpieces. You adore it or loathe it.

    Their Carmen FD is like contemporary art- some appreciate it, some love it and some hate it...and this I think is the exact reaction Virtue and Moir want from this FD. They wanted to challenge what can be portrayed in a routine and what emotions and feelings they can bring from the audience.

    If Virtue and Moir decide to compromise this idea of art to get the levels and components, they will have a better chance at winning 2013 worlds but the impact they wanted of people expressing a tonne of emotions wouldn't be as resounding as they would like. However, if they keep their FD as it is, they will probably not but this program will really go down in history as something that pushed Ice Dance to uncomfortable heights. Bit of a catch 22
    It's an interesting theory, but I tend to doubt it.

    For one thing, I like V&M's "Carmen." I like the twist that they have it end at the moment when Carmen has completely subjugated Don Jose. But modern dance Carmens are not new. I love that they are branching out into a wider range of emotions than they did in their previous programs. But I don't think it is a monumental shift in ice dance; if anything, it's a move back to the past.

    Krylova & Ovsiannakov's 1998 Olympic Carmen was even more controversial (and, BTW, I liked it too). And they won Worlds with it after Grishuk & Platov retired:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphQkdw4fmw

    In fact, some of the movements in V&M's Carmen remind me a good deal of K&O's Carmen, particularly some of the leg spreading moves, the pass between the legs move, and one of the lifts. Krylova's Carmen is a much witchier Carmen than Tessa's; she is playing a bad lady, for sure. To me, Tessa is doing a "playing with fire" and "what have I done" at her moment of her triumph at the end kind of person, a more sympathetic character.

    A previous Carmen, Natalia Bestemianova, did a full-range Carmen to win World's in Japan in 1985 (I think of her portrayal as "woman unable to control passion" Carmen)
    Again, the movements used to portray opposition are not out of ballet or ballroom, and some of these bouncy, violent movements pass along to Anjelika & Tessa.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7WhMB79Io

    As to D&W, I think they have been quite successful in improving their acting on ice ability; they are not just athletic dancers, if they ever were; V&M are not just "love-bird" dancers any more, if they ever were. Both teams have branched out a bit this year and have taken possession of areas that they were a bit weak in in the past, and I applaud both teams for it.

  4. #349
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    2013 4cc Free Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    ... They definitely looked like they were setting up for a lift but changed their minds, embracing and holding hands for a few seconds longer before actually stopping.
    I have not read the entire thread, has anyone checked the rules regarding when a lift is considered "attempted"? Does the women need to be actually physically lifted off the ice?

    This all reminds me of the Mao/Joannie thread at FSU, shortly after the Vancouver Olympics. Someone had suggested Joannie technically could have won the silver, with Mao the bronze. Video evidence had been provided showing Mao aborting what could have been considered an attempted jump. Mao had turned, glided backwards, was extending her free leg back in preparation for the toe pick jump, then lost her balance and aborted. She skated further down the ice and threw in another jump. If the aborted jump was counted as attempted, the final jump of her program would have been over the max jump limit and would not have counted (because of the jump she threw in after aborting the attempt). If the points she received for the final jump of her program was deducted from her silver medal winning score, she would have fallen below Joannie. However, the aborted jump was not considered an attempt by the judges, and the rest is history.

  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvi5 View Post
    I have not read the entire thread, has anyone checked the rules regarding when a lift is considered "attempted"? Does the women need to be actually physically lifted off the ice?
    Earlier in the thread, I had copied and pasted the ISU rules re restarting. See post #104 on p. 7, reachable at the link below.

    The ISU rules say:
    "The point from where the Competitor/s has to continue the program shall be decided and communicated to the Judges and the Technical Panel by the Referee."

    It was the referee who authorized Virtue/Moir to resume their FD before the lift.

    If the ref had felt the resumption should start at a different point, it was her responsibility to say so.

  6. #351
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The tech panel handbook gives this (from communications 1738 & 1677

    6. If a Fall or interruption occurs at the entrance to or during a Dance Lift, the element shall be identified and given a
    Level according to the requirements met before the Fall or interruption, or No Level if the requirements for Level 1 are not met
    So I guess the issue is whether the interruption occurred "at the entrance to" a Dance Lift.

    The other stuff is at the discretion of the referee:
    If the referee decides that there was no equipment failure or injury:

    Interruption of program in excess of 5 seconds - between 6 and 15 sec.
    -1.0 point
    - between 16 and 30 sec.
    -2.0 points
    Referee

    The global info is at
    SPECIAL REGULATIONS & TECHNICAL RULES SINGLE & PAIR SKATING and ICE DANCE 2012, as accepted by the 54th Ordinary Congress June 2012," p. 151, Rule 638
    "Allowance of a delayed start or restart"


    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    3. If a Couple gets injured during the performance or another adverse condition related to them or their equipment (such as health problems or unexpected damage to their clothing or equipment) impedes their skating, the Couple must stop skating. If they don't stop, they will be ordered to do so by an acoustic signal of the Referee. The Couple shall continue from the point of interruption immediately, if the adverse condition can be remedied without delay. If this is not possible, the Referee will allow an up to three (3) minutes period for the Couple to resume skating from the point of interruption. This time period commences immediately after the Couple stops skating or is ordered to do so by the Referee, whichever is earlier. If the Couple does not resume skating their program within the three minutes period, they shall be considered withdrawn. The point from where the Couple has to continue the program shall be decided and communicated to the Judges and the Technical Panel by the Referee
    So the whole thing is entirely up to the Referee.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 02-17-2013 at 08:08 AM.

  7. #352
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    Congratulations to Gilles & Poirier for finishing 3rd in the Free Dance. If they had finished 3rd in the Original Dance they could have been on the podium. Their next step will be to take it up another level.

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvi5 View Post
    I have not read the entire thread, has anyone checked the rules regarding when a lift is considered "attempted"? Does the women need to be actually physically lifted off the ice?

    This all reminds me of the Mao/Joannie thread at FSU, shortly after the Vancouver Olympics. Someone had suggested Joannie technically could have won the silver, with Mao the bronze. Video evidence had been provided showing Mao aborting what could have been considered an attempted jump. Mao had turned, glided backwards, was extending her free leg back in preparation for the toe pick jump, then lost her balance and aborted. She skated further down the ice and threw in another jump. If the aborted jump was counted as attempted, the final jump of her program would have been over the max jump limit and would not have counted (because of the jump she threw in after aborting the attempt). If the points she received for the final jump of her program was deducted from her silver medal winning score, she would have fallen below Joannie. However, the aborted jump was not considered an attempt by the judges, and the rest is history.



    A bit OT I guess but I was so surprised that issue was not debated more here on GS at the time, nor I believe on the yahoogroups skatefans site which I was active on for years before discovering GS. That seemed a more clearcut aborted attempt but was still an official's decision I guess; more hazards of a judged sport. I have not watched Mao' s rogram in ages tho and my memory cld be fuzzy.

  9. #354
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It's hard to know why something wasn't discussed, but it's probably because the correct winner, Yuna, won.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    It's an interesting theory, but I tend to doubt it.

    For one thing, I like V&M's "Carmen." I like the twist that they have it end at the moment when Carmen has completely subjugated Don Jose. But modern dance Carmens are not new. I love that they are branching out into a wider range of emotions than they did in their previous programs. But I don't think it is a monumental shift in ice dance; if anything, it's a move back to the past.

    Krylova & Ovsiannakov's 1998 Olympic Carmen was even more controversial (and, BTW, I liked it too). And they won Worlds with it after Grishuk & Platov retired:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphQkdw4fmw

    In fact, some of the movements in V&M's Carmen remind me a good deal of K&O's Carmen, particularly some of the leg spreading moves, the pass between the legs move, and one of the lifts. Krylova's Carmen is a much witchier Carmen than Tessa's; she is playing a bad lady, for sure. To me, Tessa is doing a "playing with fire" and "what have I done" at her moment of her triumph at the end kind of person, a more sympathetic character.

    A previous Carmen, Natalia Bestemianova, did a full-range Carmen to win World's in Japan in 1985 (I think of her portrayal as "woman unable to control passion" Carmen)
    Again, the movements used to portray opposition are not out of ballet or ballroom, and some of these bouncy, violent movements pass along to Anjelika & Tessa.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7WhMB79Io
    The primary difference is that neither K&O nor B&B competed under CoP. Making a modern dance program with CoP's stringent requirements makes this an entirely new ballgame.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post

    .......But I don't think it is a monumental shift in ice dance; if anything, it's a move back to the past.....Krylova & Ovsiannakov's 1998 Olympic Carmen was even more controversial (and, BTW, I liked it too). And they won Worlds with it after Grishuk & Platov retired:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphQkdw4fmw
    Given the great beauty of Tessa, one wishes she also had the agility, lithness and lightness of a Krylova who seems to portray the very essence of Carmen!

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Lee View Post
    Given the great beauty of Tessa, one wishes she also had the agility, lithness and lightness of a Krylova who seems to portray the very essence of Carmen!
    To me Krylova was the best female ice dancer ever. And a striking beauty

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswanphoto View Post
    To me Krylova was the best female ice dancer ever. And a striking beauty
    & ! And Pasquale is the luckiest man in the world I think!

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    A small part of me wonders if D/W aren't Marina's favorites... way deep down in her heart.

    I think D/W have the superior concept for the SD... and I think "Carmen" has put V/M at disadvantage in the FD, because it has become so trite, no matter what innovation they've brought to it.

    For the Olympic season, if Marina selects something like Egyptian music and has Scott and Tessa doing "Steve Martin/King Tut" arm gestures... then we'll know for sure.
    I doubt that very much....I am sure Marina treats her teams both equally..afterall V/M did her proud at the Vancouver 2010 Olympics.

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