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Thread: 2013 4cc Free Dance

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post

    Filtering out the "pause," I still enjoyed V/M's FD more than I have in previous competitions."
    I did, too. Although I do find the opening choreo for Tessa to be overwrought or wrong for her (I kinda laugh at the posturing, she doesnt sell it convincingly), otherwise I like this dance more and more. Any chance they will keep it for next year? The workhorse music appeals to a greater audience, I have 2 admit, tho we skatefans get tired of the hackneyed pieces. And it might help them to keep the FD and just tweak it, given apparent physical issues.

    Over the years, tho, I continue to be amazed and just simply delighted watching Meryl and Charlie. Love this dance almost as much as last year's.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    ISU rules regarding a restart (emphases added):

    3. If a Competitor gets injured during the performance or another adverse condition related to him or his equipment (such as health problems or unexpected damage to his/their clothing or equipment) impedes his/their skating, the Competitor/s must stop skating. If he/they don’t stop, they will be ordered to do so by an acoustic signal of the Referee. The Competitor/s shall continue from the point of interruption immediately, if the adverse condition can be remedied without delay. If this is not possible, the Referee will allow an up to three (3) minutes period for the Competitor/s to resume skating from the point of interruption. This time period commences immediately after the Competitor/s stops skating or is ordered to do so by the Referee, whichever is earlier.
    If the Competitor/s does not resume skating his/their program within the three minutes period, he/she shall be considered withdrawn.
    The point from where the Competitor/s has to continue the program shall be decided and communicated to the Judges and the Technical Panel by the Referee.

    6. With respect to adverse conditions related to a Competitor or his equipment, only one restart per program is allowed. In case of a second stop of the performance due to an adverse condition related to the Competitor/s or his/their equipment, the Competitor/s concerned shall be considered withdrawn.

    7. If Competitor/s do not complete the program, no marks are awarded and the Competitor/s is/are withdrawn.

    Source: pp. 108-108 at the link below
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf
    Thank you for posting the rule. It seems clear that this rule is in effect to protect the skaters, and that's a very good thing. However, the holes are large enough to drive a truck through.

    "Injury" seems pretty clear. Suppose a skater cuts the hand while doing a catch-foot move and is bleeding visibly. It seems reasonable under the rule that a stoppage would be allowed without penalty. "Equipment" would seem to be "skates" as I can think of no other equipment a skater would need... so why don't they say that? Isn't there another rule addressing wardrobe malfunctions?

    "Adverse condition to the skater" and "health problems"... what does that mean? An asthma attack would seem a reasonable application of the rule, as would something like a fan throwing something onto the ice during the performance or a music stoppage (reference to Irina Rodnina)... A bad case of nerves doesn't seem reasonable... nor does lack of conditioning. I am NOT saying this is what happened to V/M... just trying to decode the rule.

    I'm also a fan of tennis, and there has been a disturbing trend of gaming the medical treatment rules there.

    At any rate, these are wonderful athletes, and I hope that whatever has caused the problem will be short-term and that the fix will prevent reoccurrence.

  3. #153
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    I'm very happy for Charie and Meryl. I love this Notre Dame de Paris program better than Die Fliedermaus. I think it shows all the passion and angst of the music coupled with their athleticism and connection with each other. Generally when I watch pairs or dance my eye is drawn to the woman. I cannot take my eyes off of Charlie. He throws himself into the choreography and just becomes an extension of the music - taking Meryl with him. I think Virtue and Moir are incredible but I feel like they're just skating choreography. Or it could be that Im sick to death of listening to Carmen.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    How's this for weird

    Spins and twizzles are stronger for D/W than V/M, but V/M outscored them here.
    Lifts tend to be basically equal - I don't think there's a trend; D/W won that.
    Footwork - V/M outGOED D/W by 0.01, but that pales in comparison to D/W's out levelling them on one step seqence (1.5 points difference right there).

    D/W are clearly working like maniacs this year to avoid a repeat of last year. Very curious what happens at Worlds. I think D/W are the heavy favourites at this point.
    a little surprised by the fact that V/M were marked higher on spins and twizzles...

    but back to issue everyone seems to be having, that i think is being blown out of proportion (a bit) since D/W were clearly having a much better skate and i believe would have won even without V/M's issues...
    However, i was kind of upset/disappointed that Scott and Tessa didn't try to skate through whatever breathing issues Tessa was having. I'm sure that they wouldn't have stopped unless Tessa was having a breathing issue, but i would have liked to see them fight through and continue especially since they looked like there were going to continue when the music picked up again after they glided for the 10 sec of the lift...but then they stopped. As someone who has suffered a panic attack and has hyperventilated before, it's NOT fun and quite serious, but it also is a lot more severe than what Tessa had going on...they just looked like they stopped and there was no visible reason for them to stop. I understand if Tess needed to catch her breath and they skipped the lift all together and lost those points entirely (then yes, they would not have finished on the podium at all, but at least we'd understand an aborted lift). I do think that with the referee letting go back tot eh beginning on the lift to receive the points, was not in the best interest in preserving the integrity of figure skating...but what's done is done. I just hope we're not going down somewhat slippery slope after this incident. There are numerous skaters with documented asthma problems, and we haven't EVER seen something like this...and this should NOT be a reason to set precedent...here are some examples in the past where skaters have fought through the end...

    - Charlie White has asthma, that's why he normally looks so out of breath at the end of D/W's FDs (just see today and really any other performance when he leaves it all on the ice) but they fight through it...even when 4CCs is in Colorado Springs like it was last year
    - Yuzuru Hanyu has really bad asthma and more often than not looks like he's going to pass out after as FS/or botches jumps in the second half of the program b/c he's tired/or having difficulty breathing...and let's be real, last year's 4CCs was a little too close for comfort when he had to get oxygen...
    -Alex Shibutani skated with bronchitis (iirc) last year at 4CCs in Colorado Springs...he spent what felt like minutes on the ice on his knees after their FD and Maia was supporting him as the left the ice

    and i'm sure there are more skaters who have skated with asthma problems/other health issues that one could argue that if they had gotten to have a "break" they would have had better skates and won medals...there's a REASON for the bonus after the halfway mark for singles and pairs...it is difficult to breath (for anyone, regardless of health) when you skate, spin, jump at full speed for over 4 minutes that's why figure skating is a sport. And I really hope the integrity of figure skating is protected/continues even after this incident in terms of us NEVER having to see something like this again (barring a circumstance when a skater is actually having a breathing issue serious enough to warrant medical attention - which Tessa didn't need during the "break" today).

    EDIT: fine if the problem was with Tessa's legs, then we won't go comparing apples (breathing problems) to oranges (leg problems), but this almost makes me REALLY not buy the fact that V/M HAD to stop especially there was no indication that they were having problems prior to the stop. Maybe i'm being overly harsh/judgmental, but it's one thing to stop a program (IMO, it looked like it was Scott's decision to stop since Tess was ready for the lift, but he just didn't lift her...) and another to fight through it and give a subpar performance b/c of leg cramps and not come out on top...
    Last edited by icebeauty; 02-10-2013 at 12:40 PM.

  5. #155
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    FREE DANCE - RESULT & VIDEOS (Updated)

    1. Meryl DAVIS & Charlie WHITE (USA) - 187.36 Free Dance, 2nd Copy
    2. Tessa VIRTUE & Scott MOIR (CAN) - 184.32 Free Dance, 2nd Copy
    3. Madison CHOCK & Evan BATES (USA) - 160.42 Free Dance
    4. Maia SHIBUTANI & Alex SHIBUTANI (USA) - 159.97 Free Dance
    5. Piper GILLES & Paul POIRIER (CAN) - 157.83 Free Dance
    6. Nicole ORFORD & Thomas WILLIAMS (CAN) - 139.10 Free Dance
    7. Cathy REED & Chris REED (JPN) - 131.04 Free Dance
    8. Danielle OBRIEN & Gregory MERRIMAN (AUS) - 123.88
    9. Xiaoyang YU & Chen WANG (CHN) - 108.82
    10. Anna NAGORNYUK & Viktor KOVALENKO (UZB) - 107.02
    11. Emi HIRAI & Marien DE LA ASUNCION (JPN) - 105.56
    12. Bryna OI & Taiyo MIZUTANI (JPN) - 89.80
    13. Pilar MAEKAWA & Leonardo MAEKAWA (MEX) - 85.02
    Last edited by Mao88; 02-10-2013 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    I think Virtue and Moir are incredible but I feel like they're just skating choreography. Or it could be that Im sick to death of listening to Carmen.
    A small part of me wonders if D/W aren't Marina's favorites... way deep down in her heart.

    I think D/W have the superior concept for the SD... and I think "Carmen" has put V/M at disadvantage in the FD, because it has become so trite, no matter what innovation they've brought to it.

    For the Olympic season, if Marina selects something like Egyptian music and has Scott and Tessa doing "Steve Martin/King Tut" arm gestures... then we'll know for sure.

  7. #157
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    2013 4cc Free Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by icebeauty View Post
    ... -Alex Shibutani skated with bronchitis (iirc) last year at 4CCs in Colorado Springs...he spent what felt like minutes on the ice on his knees after their FD and Maia was supporting him as the left the ice
    Was that the competition were they were setting up a lift (she leaned over, he put his arm over her waist - although he was suppose to place it under), then they aborted? As I recall, they were also permitted to restart from the lift.

  8. #158
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    Really great work by D and W though I still find it the "norm" stuff for them. I think V and M are finished. something is wrong. They have fallen behind on everything yet I do think their programs are inherently more interesting and unique than D and W - that does not translate into points. D and W could do the same routine as long as they get the l evels and the artistry for that choreographed routine yu do not get extra points for pushinghyourself - though D and W will say they are. I think D and W are clear faves for Oly gold. Chock and Bates- almost feel no bronze should have been given or share it. Very interesting that Piper andgilles did so well in the free skate. Poor Shibs.

  9. #159
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    http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/p...0.html?id=1259

    It was cramps in her legs people...

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    sidebar (that got waaaay to long...oops!):
    i'm STILL not sold on this Carmen program for Tessa and Scott...i can appreciate the difficulty and interpretation and choreography, but i'm just not buying it. they just look like they're a little too frantic and trying too hard to sell the program. The program really got my attention me at the beginning of the season, but now i'm just not that interested in it...that could be because i think there's too much going on and this program just isn't suited to their style, while i do appreciate them pushing themselves/find something challenging, but something's not working. This was the issue I had with Tessa and Scott last year too. i find that in pushing themselves they almost "bite off more than they can chew"...i though last year's FD was just a mess, and just couldn't enjoy it...

    on the other hand, i continue to be impressed by Meryl and Charlie's Notre Dame de Paris (as i mentioned previously after US nationals, I think this program may be on par/have the potential of surpassing any other program D/W have done, including Samson and Delilah). At the beginning of the season, this program seemed like there was TOO much going on -- lots of impressive technical elements, extremely emotional, full of choreography/interpretation, but this program is actually reaching perfection. Meryl and Charlie have been the hardest working skaters I have since they moved into the international spotlight...they're fist couple of seasons they worked to close the gap and become one of the best. And now that they are, they've continued to find way to improve, but they've done it season by season by focusing on a few things.
    Until 2010 Charlie and Meryl excelled by selling a story, but it became their trademark to have these big flashy FDs based off the music. Since Vancouver, they're Tango FD was about pushing themselves in technique and do something to elevate the level of skill and nuance in movement in their skating...that season, they weren't exciting to watch, but would could see that they wanted their technique and intricacies to speak for themselves. Die Fliedermaus was all about performance and interpretation...they wanted to transport the audience to a time and place and just enjoy the moment with them. This season, it's been about building emotional connection, actually using choreography to embellish and create a story on ice...they want to move the audience to tears, and they're succeeding. At this point, all these little things are going to culminate into something for them going into Sochi.

    I just feel like Tessa and Scott have been a little lost artistically...it's like they're skating b/c they still can and are always in a 1-2 race, but they don't actually know what/how they want to skate. D/W clearly have had a plan, I'm just not sure V/M did (they've always been better from the get go and I feel like it's come easier for them naturally) and now that Sochi is a year away, they're looking a little frantic b/c they still haven't figured out how they want/will be better than they were in Vancouver.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceg15 View Post
    http://www2.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/p...0.html?id=1259

    It was cramps in her legs people...
    Leg cramps for athletes are a by-product of overexertion, dehydration, and sub-optimal conditioning. This muddies the situation rather than clears it up.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    A small part of me wonders if D/W aren't Marina's favorites... way deep down in her heart.

    I think D/W have the superior concept for the SD... and I think "Carmen" has put V/M at disadvantage in the FD, because it has become so trite, no matter what innovation they've brought to it.

    For the Olympic season, if Marina selects something like Egyptian music and has Scott and Tessa doing "Steve Martin/King Tut" arm gestures... then we'll know for sure.
    Eh we used to hear the opposite last year: that D/W were Shpilland's fave and V/M were Zoeuva's babies. The more things change...

    Carmen is a risky program. Funny Face was not--it was definitely within Moir's wheelhouse, the same way that Notre Dame is firmly within Marlie's wheelhouse. It is overtly sexual, it incorporates modern dance moves into a traditional ice dance--I wonder if it makes some judges nervous.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by icebeauty View Post
    sidebar (that got waaaay to long...oops!):
    i'm STILL not sold on this Carmen program for Tessa and Scott...i can appreciate the difficulty and interpretation and choreography, but i'm just not buying it. they just look like they're a little too frantic and trying too hard to sell the program. The program really got my attention me at the beginning of the season, but now i'm just not that interested in it...that could be because i think there's too much going on and this program just isn't suited to their style, while i do appreciate them pushing themselves/find something challenging, but something's not working. This was the issue I had with Tessa and Scott last year too. i find that in pushing themselves they almost "bite off more than they can chew"...i though last year's FD was just a mess, and just couldn't enjoy it...

    on the other hand, i continue to be impressed by Meryl and Charlie's Notre Dame de Paris (as i mentioned previously after US nationals, I think this program may be on par/have the potential of surpassing any other program D/W have done, including Samson and Delilah). At the beginning of the season, this program seemed like there was TOO much going on -- lots of impressive technical elements, extremely emotional, full of choreography/interpretation, but this program is actually reaching perfection. Meryl and Charlie have been the hardest working skaters I have since they moved into the international spotlight...they're fist couple of seasons they worked to close the gap and become one of the best. And now that they are, they've continued to find way to improve, but they've done it season by season by focusing on a few things.
    Until 2010 Charlie and Meryl excelled by selling a story, but it became their trademark to have these big flashy FDs based off the music. Since Vancouver, they're Tango FD was about pushing themselves in technique and do something to elevate the level of skill and nuance in movement in their skating...that season, they weren't exciting to watch, but would could see that they wanted their technique and intricacies to speak for themselves. Die Fliedermaus was all about performance and interpretation...they wanted to transport the audience to a time and place and just enjoy the moment with them. This season, it's been about building emotional connection, actually using choreography to embellish and create a story on ice...they want to move the audience to tears, and they're succeeding. At this point, all these little things are going to culminate into something for them going into Sochi.

    I just feel like Tessa and Scott have been a little lost artistically...it's like they're skating b/c they still can and are always in a 1-2 race, but they don't actually know what/how they want to skate. D/W clearly have had a plan, I'm just not sure V/M did (they've always been better from the get go and I feel like it's come easier for them naturally) and now that Sochi is a year away, they're looking a little frantic b/c they still haven't figured out how they want/will be better than they were in Vancouver.
    Different opinions then. A lot of fans love V/M's Carmen (from what I've seen) & there are some that dislike Notre Dame. It depends on the fans & his/her preference. I do think both teams will be ready for the Olympics. Marina has probably planned both of their programs a year or two in advance.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Leg cramps for athletes are a by-product of overexertion, dehydration, and sub-optimal conditioning. This muddies the situation rather than clears it up.
    They shouldn't have been allowed to do that lift, and further be heavily penalized in PCS for stopping so that they didn't get silver. Maybe place fourth or fifth or something. That would have been okay, IMO.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by icefan1005 View Post
    I really don't think V/M's incident was intentional & I know you said if, but even suggesting that it was is sad.
    I said that because everyone is implying that and it is hard to ignore it, not because of V/M, but because if that is allowed without any deductions, it can be easily exploited - I strongly believe you agree, it is the point (and sadly right moment) where it is completely legitimate to question the judging system.
    I know that Tessa has a lot of problems with her shins and that she had few surgeries in the past and I am sure this is the reason for their "break" during the program, but in the same time it is OK to ask ourselves why didn`t they withdraw from competition like in 2011.
    I really hope, that everything is fine with V/M and that they will be able to make another outstanding triumphantly performance in their hometown on worlds, I just wrote some facts about this season, according to which everything is suggesting on D/W victory. D/W are technically excellent, and this year they also made a lot of progress on their chemistry on the ice and they weren`t injured etc. I personally prefer V/M in all segments of performance, because they always bring new inspiration to the ice, they are likeable and also have excellent technique. But in the same time because of all the injuries, enormous expectations etc they have to put 100times more effort in their program and that`s where I`m asking myself, whether they are able to overcome this this year too

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