2013 4cc Free Dance | Page 18 | Golden Skate

2013 4cc Free Dance

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I know of 3: Shibutanis, V&M, and the Zhangs. I don't think taken advantage of is the correct term, exactly; the rule was applied in their cases. I daresay it has happened at smaller competitions, but I haven't watched them.

Would Tonya Harding (1994) and Noburnari Oda (2010) also be on this list? Though I think the latter got a deduction for a costume problem.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
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Oda, I think, would qualify. Harding was an equipment malfunction, as was Todd Eldredge's cufflink on the ice(although these days, he would have gotten a costume deduction).
 

Sasha'sSpins

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v/m free dance video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGEJKyFoNSo not sure it's been posted already

^^ simultaneous posting :)

I've watched it several times. They definitely looked like they were setting up for a lift but changed their minds, embracing and holding hands for a few seconds longer before actually stopping. I don't think they should have been allowed to start before the lift.

Leg cramps for athletes are a by-product of overexertion, dehydration, and sub-optimal conditioning. This muddies the situation rather than clears it up.

Agreed. Someone on another forum pointed out that in other sports such as track or gymnastics, you're not allowed re-starts for cramps.

I just don't know about this one but I absolutely feel they should not have been allowed to do that lift after they were rested. Nor should they have won the silver imo. But it's done. On to Worlds.

I AGREE!!! your assessment is spot-on...they just haven't developed the program to it's potential, and it's showing in their performance. I'm glad I'm not the only person who has noticed this. Carmen is a piece of music that has a lot of dramatic flair w/ lots of rise and fall making it a good piece of music to use for skating, but few can really use it to it's potential and skate to it. when I found out V/M and were going to use it, i was super excited b/c i believe(d) that they could skate a program that would make skaters never want to touch Carmen again...instead the opposite has happened. By holding back/not feeling comfortable with this program, V/M have managed to prove that few can skate to Carmen and skaters should avoid it b/c even they couldn't conquer it...

i read this comment and went back to watch an uninterrupted version of this FD and i think you pinpointed the issue i have with this program...i have a hard time taking it seriously after that beginning. I like that it sets the mood/tone for the rest of the program, but it just doesn't work on Tessa. IMO, it's something you can give Madison Hubbell, and she will sell it and smolder her way through this program the way it was probably intended to be skated at least from a choreography/performance/interpretation standpoint. At this point in the season, it's too late to overhaul something that big, but I really wish the team addressed this earlier b/c I really want to LOVE this program, but it's just not happening

I just can't 'buy' this version of Carmen from V/M. Tessa has these big, beautiful doe eyes that just don't smolder enough for me. And when she spread her legs at some points it just looked vulgar to me not sexy. I hope they come up with something magical, and exquisite for the Olympic season. This isn't it, not for me anyway. And I hope very very much we do not see any stops from them nor any other Dance team at the Olympics. But especially not from them or any of the Americans.

I'm not in love with D/M's FD "Notre Dame" just yet but it's growing on me. I still have seen nothing from them to match their enchanting "Bollywood" SD from the 2010 Olympics but their Polka SD is cute. I hope they can come up with something as enchanting as their "Bollywood" number for Sochi.

It's odd that Tessa didn't look to be favoring her leg, or even rub or massage her leg at all during the break. Or am I missing something? If she was cramping, it doesn't look like it was too severe.

Agreed. When I get a leg cramp it hurts like the Dickens. I can barely stand or walk the first few minutes let alone skate as Tessa did. But well, it was her cramp not mine. I watched the footage yet again. You can clearly see Moir start to lift Virtue then they stop. The referee was very generous there. And again I repeat, I hope to Heaven this doesn't happen at the Olympics. It will not look good no matter what anyone says to the contrary if any skater/s medals with such a stop in their program and no apparent injury.

She was kinda favoring her left leg then removed her skates at the KnC.

Yes but that was after their skate. It just looked strange when they stopped and she didn't appear to rub her leg, stretch it or anything. She was clearly trying to catch her breath on the sidelines and had a sip of water. That was about it before they went back to re-start their program. It's peculiar that's all.

Does the "something different" have to be vulgar? There were lots of innovative moves they could have done other than face-to-crotch and hand-to-thigh.

Thank you. I found nothing tasteful about such moves in V/M's Carmen program. It was disappointing to see. And frankly, at the start of their program at first view, I thought Tessa ran her hand down Scott's crotch, not his leg. Must've been the angle. I had the flu and was watching the screen sideways from my bed. Some of their elements actually reminded me a little of Bestemianova and Bukin's 1988 FD. I distinctly remember one journalist's review back then calling Bestemianova's constant 'squat & spread eagle' dance' elements 'vulgar' versus the sensual "Bolero" program by Torvill & Dean four years earlier.

I just hope and pray V/M come up with a much better program for the Olympics, hopefully something fresh and new that plays to their strengths.

And I hope they re-visit the rule for allowing such stops in skater's programs.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Tennis players at the very top of the sport do take medical time-outs, but not without controversy. At the 2012 US Open, Novak Djokovic was down 2-5 in the decisive fifth set to Andy Murray when he decided to take a medical time-out, stopping play when Murray was one _game_ away from winning (and I believe it was Murray's turn to serve next, and it was very likely that he would win the next game and thus the tournament). Fans were livid at the medical time-out--they thought it was unsportsmanlike to delay Murray's inevitable victory--and Djokovic was heartily booed (which seemed to not fluster him a bit).

I have a tennis friend who says that Djokovic is famous for "timing" his time-outs. I remember a story about two other players, my faves Sampras and Agassi, from some years ago. In a minor game, not a grand slam tournament, Sampras was overcome with a stomach ailment, and he was ready to default. Agassi said (I think he may have even addressed the crowd) that he didn't think he could count it as a win if he beat Sampras through default. So he offered to continue the game later or the next day (I forget which). At that time, I think Sampras won. Not that this story has any relevance to skating, but I always find it worth repeating.

As for Scott and Tessa, they're the best in the world, along with Davis and White, and I think that personal pride would keep them from using a medical time-out (if such a thing exists in skating) as a strategy. But they probably should incur some point loss if they stop.
 
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GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Going through the comments on this page it seem that V/M's free dance definitely polarizing. Some love it and some are disgusted by its vulgar advent-garde appearance and that this season's transformation for them was a waste.

We see f skating as a balance between art and athleticism. This routine is much of a work of art (compared to Davis and White who are naturally more about the athleticism and there is nothing wrong with that) and because of that, the way we have reacted to this routine is similar to when you go to a contemporary art museum and observe their displays and masterpieces. You adore it or loathe it.

Their Carmen FD is like contemporary art- some appreciate it, some love it and some hate it...and this I think is the exact reaction Virtue and Moir want from this FD. They wanted to challenge what can be portrayed in a routine and what emotions and feelings they can bring from the audience.

If Virtue and Moir decide to compromise this idea of art to get the levels and components, they will have a better chance at winning 2013 worlds but the impact they wanted of people expressing a tonne of emotions wouldn't be as resounding as they would like. However, if they keep their FD as it is, they will probably not but this program will really go down in history as something that pushed Ice Dance to uncomfortable heights. Bit of a catch 22
 

rvi5

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Agreed. Someone on another forum pointed out that in other sports such as track or gymnastics, you're not allowed re-starts for cramps.
Actually, that is not completely true. In women's gymnastics vault, the athlete is permitted one abort while running down the ramp towards the vault. There was one vaulter who aborted and restarted the run during the London summer games individual vault finals (she didn't feel ready). I don't know if there are other permitted situations in Gymnastics.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Going through the comments on this page it seem that V/M's free dance definitely polarizing. Some love it and some are disgusted by its vulgar advent-garde appearance and that this season's transformation for them was a waste.

We see f skating as a balance between art and athleticism. This routine is much of a work of art (compared to Davis and White who are naturally more about the athleticism and there is nothing wrong with that) and because of that, the way we have reacted to this routine is similar to when you go to a contemporary art museum and observe their displays and masterpieces. You adore it or loathe it.

Their Carmen FD is like contemporary art- some appreciate it, some love it and some hate it...and this I think is the exact reaction Virtue and Moir want from this FD. They wanted to challenge what can be portrayed in a routine and what emotions and feelings they can bring from the audience.

If Virtue and Moir decide to compromise this idea of art to get the levels and components, they will have a better chance at winning 2013 worlds but the impact they wanted of people expressing a tonne of emotions wouldn't be as resounding as they would like. However, if they keep their FD as it is, they will probably not but this program will really go down in history as something that pushed Ice Dance to uncomfortable heights. Bit of a catch 22

It's an interesting theory, but I tend to doubt it.

For one thing, I like V&M's "Carmen." I like the twist that they have it end at the moment when Carmen has completely subjugated Don Jose. But modern dance Carmens are not new. I love that they are branching out into a wider range of emotions than they did in their previous programs. But I don't think it is a monumental shift in ice dance; if anything, it's a move back to the past.

Krylova & Ovsiannakov's 1998 Olympic Carmen was even more controversial (and, BTW, I liked it too). And they won Worlds with it after Grishuk & Platov retired:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphQkdw4fmw

In fact, some of the movements in V&M's Carmen remind me a good deal of K&O's Carmen, particularly some of the leg spreading moves, the pass between the legs move, and one of the lifts. Krylova's Carmen is a much witchier Carmen than Tessa's; she is playing a bad lady, for sure. To me, Tessa is doing a "playing with fire" and "what have I done" at her moment of her triumph at the end kind of person, a more sympathetic character.

A previous Carmen, Natalia Bestemianova, did a full-range Carmen to win World's in Japan in 1985 (I think of her portrayal as "woman unable to control passion" Carmen)
Again, the movements used to portray opposition are not out of ballet or ballroom, and some of these bouncy, violent movements pass along to Anjelika & Tessa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7WhMB79Io

As to D&W, I think they have been quite successful in improving their acting on ice ability; they are not just athletic dancers, if they ever were; V&M are not just "love-bird" dancers any more, if they ever were. Both teams have branched out a bit this year and have taken possession of areas that they were a bit weak in in the past, and I applaud both teams for it.
 

rvi5

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
... They definitely looked like they were setting up for a lift but changed their minds, embracing and holding hands for a few seconds longer before actually stopping.
I have not read the entire thread, has anyone checked the rules regarding when a lift is considered "attempted"? Does the women need to be actually physically lifted off the ice?

This all reminds me of the Mao/Joannie thread at FSU, shortly after the Vancouver Olympics. Someone had suggested Joannie technically could have won the silver, with Mao the bronze. Video evidence had been provided showing Mao aborting what could have been considered an attempted jump. Mao had turned, glided backwards, was extending her free leg back in preparation for the toe pick jump, then lost her balance and aborted. She skated further down the ice and threw in another jump. If the aborted jump was counted as attempted, the final jump of her program would have been over the max jump limit and would not have counted (because of the jump she threw in after aborting the attempt). If the points she received for the final jump of her program was deducted from her silver medal winning score, she would have fallen below Joannie. However, the aborted jump was not considered an attempt by the judges, and the rest is history.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I have not read the entire thread, has anyone checked the rules regarding when a lift is considered "attempted"? Does the women need to be actually physically lifted off the ice?

Earlier in the thread, I had copied and pasted the ISU rules re restarting. See post #104 on p. 7, reachable at the link below.

The ISU rules say:
"The point from where the Competitor/s has to continue the program shall be decided and communicated to the Judges and the Technical Panel by the Referee."

It was the referee who authorized Virtue/Moir to resume their FD before the lift.

If the ref had felt the resumption should start at a different point, it was her responsibility to say so.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Country
United-States
The tech panel handbook gives this (from communications 1738 & 1677

6. If a Fall or interruption occurs at the entrance to or during a Dance Lift, the element shall be identified and given a
Level according to the requirements met before the Fall or interruption, or No Level if the requirements for Level 1 are not met

So I guess the issue is whether the interruption occurred "at the entrance to" a Dance Lift.

The other stuff is at the discretion of the referee:
If the referee decides that there was no equipment failure or injury:

Interruption of program in excess of 5 seconds - between 6 and 15 sec.
-1.0 point
- between 16 and 30 sec.
-2.0 points
Referee


The global info is at
SPECIAL REGULATIONS & TECHNICAL RULES SINGLE & PAIR SKATING and ICE DANCE 2012, as accepted by the 54th Ordinary Congress June 2012," p. 151, Rule 638
"Allowance of a delayed start or restart"


http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-206192-223415-177357-0-file,00.pdf

3. If a Couple gets injured during the performance or another adverse condition related to them or their equipment (such as health problems or unexpected damage to their clothing or equipment) impedes their skating, the Couple must stop skating. If they don't stop, they will be ordered to do so by an acoustic signal of the Referee. The Couple shall continue from the point of interruption immediately, if the adverse condition can be remedied without delay. If this is not possible, the Referee will allow an up to three (3) minutes period for the Couple to resume skating from the point of interruption. This time period commences immediately after the Couple stops skating or is ordered to do so by the Referee, whichever is earlier. If the Couple does not resume skating their program within the three minutes period, they shall be considered withdrawn. The point from where the Couple has to continue the program shall be decided and communicated to the Judges and the Technical Panel by the Referee

So the whole thing is entirely up to the Referee.
 
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Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
Congratulations to Gilles & Poirier for finishing 3rd in the Free Dance. :) If they had finished 3rd in the Original Dance they could have been on the podium. Their next step will be to take it up another level.
 

ManyCairns

Medalist
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Country
United-States
I have not read the entire thread, has anyone checked the rules regarding when a lift is considered "attempted"? Does the women need to be actually physically lifted off the ice?

This all reminds me of the Mao/Joannie thread at FSU, shortly after the Vancouver Olympics. Someone had suggested Joannie technically could have won the silver, with Mao the bronze. Video evidence had been provided showing Mao aborting what could have been considered an attempted jump. Mao had turned, glided backwards, was extending her free leg back in preparation for the toe pick jump, then lost her balance and aborted. She skated further down the ice and threw in another jump. If the aborted jump was counted as attempted, the final jump of her program would have been over the max jump limit and would not have counted (because of the jump she threw in after aborting the attempt). If the points she received for the final jump of her program was deducted from her silver medal winning score, she would have fallen below Joannie. However, the aborted jump was not considered an attempt by the judges, and the rest is history.




A bit OT I guess but I was so surprised that issue was not debated more here on GS at the time, nor I believe on the yahoogroups skatefans site which I was active on for years before discovering GS. That seemed a more clearcut aborted attempt but was still an official's decision I guess; more hazards of a judged sport. I have not watched Mao' s rogram in ages tho and my memory cld be fuzzy.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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It's hard to know why something wasn't discussed, but it's probably because the correct winner, Yuna, won.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
It's an interesting theory, but I tend to doubt it.

For one thing, I like V&M's "Carmen." I like the twist that they have it end at the moment when Carmen has completely subjugated Don Jose. But modern dance Carmens are not new. I love that they are branching out into a wider range of emotions than they did in their previous programs. But I don't think it is a monumental shift in ice dance; if anything, it's a move back to the past.

Krylova & Ovsiannakov's 1998 Olympic Carmen was even more controversial (and, BTW, I liked it too). And they won Worlds with it after Grishuk & Platov retired:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphQkdw4fmw

In fact, some of the movements in V&M's Carmen remind me a good deal of K&O's Carmen, particularly some of the leg spreading moves, the pass between the legs move, and one of the lifts. Krylova's Carmen is a much witchier Carmen than Tessa's; she is playing a bad lady, for sure. To me, Tessa is doing a "playing with fire" and "what have I done" at her moment of her triumph at the end kind of person, a more sympathetic character.

A previous Carmen, Natalia Bestemianova, did a full-range Carmen to win World's in Japan in 1985 (I think of her portrayal as "woman unable to control passion" Carmen)
Again, the movements used to portray opposition are not out of ballet or ballroom, and some of these bouncy, violent movements pass along to Anjelika & Tessa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x7WhMB79Io

The primary difference is that neither K&O nor B&B competed under CoP. Making a modern dance program with CoP's stringent requirements makes this an entirely new ballgame.
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
.......But I don't think it is a monumental shift in ice dance; if anything, it's a move back to the past.....Krylova & Ovsiannakov's 1998 Olympic Carmen was even more controversial (and, BTW, I liked it too). And they won Worlds with it after Grishuk & Platov retired:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphQkdw4fmw

Given the great beauty of Tessa, one wishes she also had the agility, lithness and lightness of a Krylova who seems to portray the very essence of Carmen!
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
A small part of me wonders if D/W aren't Marina's favorites... way deep down in her heart.

I think D/W have the superior concept for the SD... and I think "Carmen" has put V/M at disadvantage in the FD, because it has become so trite, no matter what innovation they've brought to it.

For the Olympic season, if Marina selects something like Egyptian music and has Scott and Tessa doing "Steve Martin/King Tut" arm gestures... then we'll know for sure.

I doubt that very much....I am sure Marina treats her teams both equally..afterall V/M did her proud at the Vancouver 2010 Olympics.
 
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