02-12-2013, 08:37 PM
Second that. for the sake of truth, and it is good for everybody.
Originally Posted by WeakAnkles
02-12-2013, 09:19 PM
^ I am an expert lip-reader. Scott says, "Hey, Tess, let's fake an injury. That way we will be sure to lose. This will lull Meryl and Charlie into a false sense of security and we can kick their butts at Worlds."
02-12-2013, 09:21 PM
And people thought that Kanadian Konspiracy thing was *ironic*...
02-12-2013, 09:50 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Math, thank you for using the guy to signal irony.
02-12-2013, 09:54 PM
I don't know why some Canadian fans (at least I assume they are) can't seem to take any criticism of Canadian skaters. For God's sake, it's only a sport, and forums like this are precisely the place where people feel free to offer their opinions about the sport. Saying V&M's claim was dubious at best doesn't automatically equate to insulting all Canadian skaters! In fact, I'll come right out and say that from all appearances it *looks* like V&M botched the lift (doesn't matter which one of them), so they came up with the leg cramp excuse to restart their program. No need to insinuate anything there!
Originally Posted by bellafurr
Last edited by LoveOcean; 02-12-2013 at 09:56 PM.
02-13-2013, 03:29 AM
Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir
- One thing that puzzles me about this whole discussion is the seeming lack of controversy when the Shibutanis stopped and then restarted their program at a GP event.
Their situation was very much the same as Virtue/Moir's. When the Shibs stopped their program, no immediate official announcement was made as to the reason. After the program, the Shibs said that the problem had been that Alex had a leg cramp.
I do not recall any cloud of suspicion that the Shibutanis were less than honest with the referee or any suggestion that they had abused the rules. And I do not recall any clamor for the ISU to change its rules.
So why now all the skepticism in V/M's case? Why only now all the criticism of the ISU rules?
I "get" that V/M receive more attention in general because they are Olympic and World champions. But with World and GP medals, the Shibs are not exactly chopped liver either.
N.B.: I am not pointing an accusatory finger at the Shibs. I do not think that they did anything wrong. I do not think that V/M did anything wrong either. Just wondering about the different reactions to the two teams.
- For those who say that Virtue did not appear to be in pain, I would note that she unfortunately has had a lot of experience in hiding pain.
For a length of time after her first surgery, she did not let even Moir see how much pain she was feeling. Virtue wanted to protect him from the mental burden of knowing that she was in severe pain, but her stoicism instead badly confused Moir as to what her body was and was not capable of doing. It became one of the serious communication problems between them during that period that put an uncharacteristic strain on their historically solid partnership.
And right through the Olympics, Virtue was skating in pain, but she did not make any public disclosure until much later. Other than her innermost circle, no one had a clue.
Originally Posted by golden411
- leafy, I have been meaning to respond that your question is valid from a literal point of view. No argument there.
Originally Posted by leafygreens
IMHO, Pyette's tweet seemed to be written from more of a big-picture long view ... which I interpret as something like, "Virtue doesn't let minor pain stop her from achieving a season's best score."
Thanks for the comic relief, MM! [/INDENT][/INDENT]
Originally Posted by Mathman
Last edited by golden411; 02-13-2013 at 03:46 AM.
02-13-2013, 07:28 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
There was a great deal of unhappiness with the Shibs and with the rule at the time of CoR. However, less people are Shib fans, so there was less discussion. Also, clearly the Shib's scores suffered a great deal at the time and finished fourth, behind a team just up from juniors, so people who felt they should finish off the podium for interrupting the program had nothing to complain about...they had finished off the podium.
This is an old argument. Many people felt the pair team of Zhang & Zhang should have been more penalized in the 2006 Olympics rather than going on to win silver after Zhang Dan's horrific fall on a throw quad.
This is the third time we've seen the way this rule works (or doesn't work), and it's no wonder people want the rule changed; there was an outcry on the boards all 3 times, less with the Shibs because their scores were affected, than with V&M and the Zhangs, whose score appeared unaffected.
That's one thing.
But clearly Tessa had a leg cramp, or the lift would have gone up.
Clearly it was Tessa and not Scott, because if you look at the mechanics of that lift, she's the one that dives into a handstand on his leg, and she didn't do it.
It is a fact that Tessa has unfortunately had to know how to skate through pain for a long time; no one should be surprised that she can do it.
So I do not like to see unsourced rumors that they were faking an injury.
But also, I think the rule needs some changes, too. Skating is a sport, after all.
02-13-2013, 08:09 AM
I actually think that V/M's score was affected: one judge gave them 9.75 for PE, but another one gave 8.50, and another one 8.75, that are "low" marks for them; these are their PE marks from 4CC: 8.75 9.00 8.50 9.00 9.75 9.50 9.50 9.50 9.50 and these are their PE marks from the GPF: 9.75 9.75 9.50 9.50 9.25 9.50 9.75 9.50 9.75. I think that their performance itself at 4CC was better than the GPF one, it's just that at 4CC there was that interruption, so I think that it was reflected in the PE marks, and it was fair... Then, their DiSt received "just" a +1.86 GOE and a Level 3, and their ChLi received two +1s, that's what made the difference between D/W and them: the interruption actually affected the score!
02-13-2013, 08:17 AM
I agree. Perhaps the scores were affected, but it only appeared not to be because the improvements cancelled the losses caused by the stop in the program.
Watching the [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGEJKyFoNSo]V/M FD video[/URL], at one point after they first stopped, it appears Tessa's left leg began to buckle under her and she started to slump downwards slightly in Scott's arms (at about 2:58). She seemed to favor that leg afterwards as she glided backwards while talking to Scott. You can see her lifting the leg a couple times (at 3:01 and 3:04). During the replay from the opposite view (at 4:32), you can also see Scott slump downwards. Perhaps because Tessa was pulling him down with her weight leaning on him.
Last edited by rvi5; 02-13-2013 at 08:46 AM.
02-13-2013, 09:35 AM
Of course, in 2011 they withdrew from the competition, but at least they gave an interview telling what went wrong. Have they done that this year? Broadcasters had some tech difficulties in this 2011 vid
02-13-2013, 09:45 AM
How do you react to the leg rubbing at the 0.40 mark? A little too blatant for my taste, but daring. There are two other moves in the program which strike me the same way. I guess they are trying to push the envelope.
Last edited by Icey; 02-13-2013 at 09:49 AM.
02-13-2013, 01:53 PM
It is ungraceful because Tessa has to gape her legs like a frog.
Originally Posted by Icey
02-13-2013, 02:37 PM
This interpretation of Carmen is not about gracefulness. I'm glad it's not, because we all know they know how to skate gracefully. It was time for something different.
Originally Posted by Mathman
02-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Does the "something different" have to be vulgar? There were lots of innovative moves they could have done other than face-to-crotch and hand-to-thigh.
02-13-2013, 04:53 PM
Everybody gets it, chuckm. You think the program is vulgar.
Originally Posted by chuckm
Carmen is a story about sex and power. Is it possible to make a Disney version of Carmen? Sure. I'm sure if Marina Zoueva believed that majority of the figure skating audience and judging panels would shocked to the core when they see a woman's hand on a man's thigh, that's exactly what she would have recommended. I believe however, she remembers what ice dance used to look like in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, before the majority of senior ice dancers were under 25. When ice dancers used to skate around in outfits like this: [url]http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/k1pdjqTH3jF/Olympics+Day+10+Figure+Skating/do1Rk1ps0Ei/Elena+Grushina[/url]