2013 4cc Free Dance

[chuckm]

One thing I know for sure---Charlie wouldn't say Meryl was the one with the leg cramp.

[Mathman]

Here is another famous example. At the 1998 World Pro, Todd Eldredge fell on a triple Lutz. He hit the ice so hard that he broke a cufflink. A few seconds later he noticed the cufflink on the ice. He stopped the program and went over to the referee's table to show the panel that there was a hazard on the ice.

Assistant referee Alexander Lakernik (now head of the ISU technical committee) gave Eldredge one of his own cufflinks. Eldredge was asked if he wanted to pick up the program from before or after the triple Lutz attempt. Todd went with before. He nailed it on the second attempt and finished in second ahead of Rudy Galindo and Kurt Browning. (Alexei Yagudin won.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuAVmwgD1tI#t=2m9s

[Ice Diva]

I wonder about athlete safety. If a break has penalties attached, what happens if one of the athletes gets injured but doesn't stop because he/she doesn't want to incur the penalty? Let's say right before a lift during the FD at Sochi Olympics, Charlie White gets a severe leg cramp. D/W are just behind V/M in the standings, and they know the penalty will blow any chance of winning. Should he continue to lift Meryl with the very real chance that he could cause serious injury to both Meryl and himself? What do you think an athlete who has trained his entire life to win a gold medal at the Olympic Games would do at that moment? Let's also say Ice Dance gold is the U.S.'s only real hope for a gold medal in figure skating, and the pressure on D/W to win is huge.

Excellent point. Safety of the athletes is paramount & figure skating can dangerous. IMO the ISU are correct in eliminating penalties. These skaters spend years/months/hours perfecting their programs & if an injury or equipment malfunction suddenly occurs, it's only fair there's some leeway & flexibility rather than punitive rigidity. Stuff happens.

[qazwsx]

Excellent point. Safety of the athletes is paramount & figure skating can dangerous. IMO the ISU are correct in eliminating penalties. These skaters spend years/months/hours perfecting their programs & if an injury or equipment malfunction suddenly occurs, it's only fair there's some leeway & flexibility rather than punitive rigidity. Stuff happens.

Oh, no, I really don't think you want to ELIMINATE penalties - what's left there - relying on the athelets' sense of honor to prevent abusing of this "leeway and & flexibility" ? This is a sport after all and risk is part of it, like you said, stuff happens. If you have decided to commit to it, you should accept certain degree of risk and accountability. I agree there should be some measure for safety, but not like this.

[dorispulaski]

I'd probably put at least a one point penalty. Maybe 2. Or maybe on a sliding scle, depending on how long the interruption is.

[tulosai]

I'd probably put at least a one point penalty. Maybe 2. Or maybe on a sliding scle, depending on how long the interruption is.

I think at least there should be more transparency and a time limit on the interruption (or perhaps sliding scale as you say). I think the skaters should have to say what is wrong and that there should be atime limit for them to get their stuff together. I think a 1-2 point penalty is appropriate. I think safety is very important (and hope the skaters think so too!) but as others have said better than I could it's a sport. If you cannot do a program straight through, whatever the reason, a mild penalty is appropriate. If it is just one point that is far less than the 'real' penalty for a fall (taking into account negative GOE) and I think that is more than fair.

[Tereska]

I think at least there should be more transparency and a time limit on the interruption (or perhaps sliding scale as you say). I think the skaters should have to say what is wrong and that there should be atime limit for them to get their stuff together. I think a 1-2 point penalty is appropriate. I think safety is very important (and hope the skaters think so too!) but as others have said better than I could it's a sport. If you cannot do a program straight through, whatever the reason, a mild penalty is appropriate. If it is just one point that is far less than the 'real' penalty for a fall (taking into account negative GOE) and I think that is more than fair.

I'm not disputing the idea of there being a point deduction, etc., but there is a time limit already -- three minutes, or else the skaters are considered to be withdrawn.

[Skater Boy]

I remember I think the 2006 Olympics and the Zhang's. I thought they should have forfeited their medals. They went for a big trick and failed and got hurt. I am not sure they got penalized at all other than the fall. This was not a fluke accident ie broken shoe lace, cuff link; they made a huge error on a throw jump.

[all that]

Oh, no, I really don't think you want to ELIMINATE penalties - what's left there - relying on the athelets' sense of honor to prevent abusing of this "leeway and & flexibility" ? This is a sport after all and risk is part of it, like you said, stuff happens. If you have decided to commit to it, you should accept certain degree of risk and accountability. I agree there should be some measure for safety, but not like this.

How much abuse have we seen? How many skaters have taken advantage of this rule as it now stands?

[dorispulaski]

I know of 3: Shibutanis, V&M, and the Zhangs. I don't think taken advantage of is the correct term, exactly; the rule was applied in their cases. I daresay it has happened at smaller competitions, but I haven't watched them.

[Mrs. P]

I know of 3: Shibutanis, V&M, and the Zhangs. I don't think taken advantage of is the correct term, exactly; the rule was applied in their cases. I daresay it has happened at smaller competitions, but I haven't watched them.

Would Tonya Harding (1994) and Noburnari Oda (2010) also be on this list? Though I think the latter got a deduction for a costume problem.

[Mathman]

Welcome, Tereska. Thanks for joining us. Post often, post long!

[dorispulaski]

Oda, I think, would qualify. Harding was an equipment malfunction, as was Todd Eldredge's cufflink on the ice(although these days, he would have gotten a costume deduction).

[Sasha'sSpins]

v/m free dance video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGEJKyFoNSo not sure it's been posted already

^^ simultaneous posting

I've watched it several times. They definitely looked like they were setting up for a lift but changed their minds, embracing and holding hands for a few seconds longer before actually stopping. I don't think they should have been allowed to start before the lift.

Leg cramps for athletes are a by-product of overexertion, dehydration, and sub-optimal conditioning. This muddies the situation rather than clears it up.

Agreed. Someone on another forum pointed out that in other sports such as track or gymnastics, you're not allowed re-starts for cramps.

I just don't know about this one but I absolutely feel they should not have been allowed to do that lift after they were rested. Nor should they have won the silver imo. But it's done. On to Worlds.

I AGREE!!! your assessment is spot-on...they just haven't developed the program to it's potential, and it's showing in their performance. I'm glad I'm not the only person who has noticed this. Carmen is a piece of music that has a lot of dramatic flair w/ lots of rise and fall making it a good piece of music to use for skating, but few can really use it to it's potential and skate to it. when I found out V/M and were going to use it, i was super excited b/c i believe(d) that they could skate a program that would make skaters never want to touch Carmen again...instead the opposite has happened. By holding back/not feeling comfortable with this program, V/M have managed to prove that few can skate to Carmen and skaters should avoid it b/c even they couldn't conquer it...

i read this comment and went back to watch an uninterrupted version of this FD and i think you pinpointed the issue i have with this program...i have a hard time taking it seriously after that beginning. I like that it sets the mood/tone for the rest of the program, but it just doesn't work on Tessa. IMO, it's something you can give Madison Hubbell, and she will sell it and smolder her way through this program the way it was probably intended to be skated at least from a choreography/performance/interpretation standpoint. At this point in the season, it's too late to overhaul something that big, but I really wish the team addressed this earlier b/c I really want to LOVE this program, but it's just not happening

I just can't 'buy' this version of Carmen from V/M. Tessa has these big, beautiful doe eyes that just don't smolder enough for me. And when she spread her legs at some points it just looked vulgar to me not sexy. I hope they come up with something magical, and exquisite for the Olympic season. This isn't it, not for me anyway. And I hope very very much we do not see any stops from them nor any other Dance team at the Olympics. But especially not from them or any of the Americans.

I'm not in love with D/M's FD "Notre Dame" just yet but it's growing on me. I still have seen nothing from them to match their enchanting "Bollywood" SD from the 2010 Olympics but their Polka SD is cute. I hope they can come up with something as enchanting as their "Bollywood" number for Sochi.

It's odd that Tessa didn't look to be favoring her leg, or even rub or massage her leg at all during the break. Or am I missing something? If she was cramping, it doesn't look like it was too severe.

Agreed. When I get a leg cramp it hurts like the Dickens. I can barely stand or walk the first few minutes let alone skate as Tessa did. But well, it was her cramp not mine. I watched the footage yet again. You can clearly see Moir start to lift Virtue then they stop. The referee was very generous there. And again I repeat, I hope to Heaven this doesn't happen at the Olympics. It will not look good no matter what anyone says to the contrary if any skater/s medals with such a stop in their program and no apparent injury.

She was kinda favoring her left leg then removed her skates at the KnC.

Yes but that was after their skate. It just looked strange when they stopped and she didn't appear to rub her leg, stretch it or anything. She was clearly trying to catch her breath on the sidelines and had a sip of water. That was about it before they went back to re-start their program. It's peculiar that's all.

Does the "something different" have to be vulgar? There were lots of innovative moves they could have done other than face-to-crotch and hand-to-thigh.

Thank you. I found nothing tasteful about such moves in V/M's Carmen program. It was disappointing to see. And frankly, at the start of their program at first view, I thought Tessa ran her hand down Scott's crotch, not his leg. Must've been the angle. I had the flu and was watching the screen sideways from my bed. Some of their elements actually reminded me a little of Bestemianova and Bukin's 1988 FD. I distinctly remember one journalist's review back then calling Bestemianova's constant 'squat & spread eagle' dance' elements 'vulgar' versus the sensual "Bolero" program by Torvill & Dean four years earlier.

I just hope and pray V/M come up with a much better program for the Olympics, hopefully something fresh and new that plays to their strengths.

And I hope they re-visit the rule for allowing such stops in skater's programs.

[Olympia]

Tennis players at the very top of the sport do take medical time-outs, but not without controversy. At the 2012 US Open, Novak Djokovic was down 2-5 in the decisive fifth set to Andy Murray when he decided to take a medical time-out, stopping play when Murray was one _game_ away from winning (and I believe it was Murray's turn to serve next, and it was very likely that he would win the next game and thus the tournament). Fans were livid at the medical time-out--they thought it was unsportsmanlike to delay Murray's inevitable victory--and Djokovic was heartily booed (which seemed to not fluster him a bit).

I have a tennis friend who says that Djokovic is famous for "timing" his time-outs. I remember a story about two other players, my faves Sampras and Agassi, from some years ago. In a minor game, not a grand slam tournament, Sampras was overcome with a stomach ailment, and he was ready to default. Agassi said (I think he may have even addressed the crowd) that he didn't think he could count it as a win if he beat Sampras through default. So he offered to continue the game later or the next day (I forget which). At that time, I think Sampras won. Not that this story has any relevance to skating, but I always find it worth repeating.

As for Scott and Tessa, they're the best in the world, along with Davis and White, and I think that personal pride would keep them from using a medical time-out (if such a thing exists in skating) as a strategy. But they probably should incur some point loss if they stop.