Davis & White to regain World title? | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Davis & White to regain World title?

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
And that's the difference between a fan and an uber: the fan can appreciate many skaters, and doesn't need to diminish others beyond all reason in order to enjoy his or her favorites. Whereas the uber is incapable of seeing merit in anyone but a select few (if even that).

Doris, of you have specific videos to share of good US teams from the 6.0 era, please do!

BTW, it is possible to succeed with a small height difference. The Kerrs managed to get on the podium at Euros and into the top five at Worlds despite getting a late start in ice dance, pairing up as seniors, having the smallest height difference of any elite team I can recall (6 cm), being a sibling team and having a federation that's not really the most powerful or supportive. If they could do it, others can to! It does mean that you have to understand what your strengths and weaknesses are, what you can improve and where you to think outside the box (if you can't improve some things).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I seems like people do not talk so much about "line" as they used to. Navka and Kostomarov had better "lines" than Belbin and Agosto in 2006, for instance. I would imagine that when it comes to lines, the longer the better. Tall and willowy beats short and petite (and blows short and not-so-petite out of the water altogether).

By the way, in the opening pose of Virtue and Moir's long dance, they are standing back to back, like children measuring themselves against each other. It's cool because the back of Tessa's head fits perfectly into the the hollow of the back of Scotts neck, looking like some sort of Janus-like human sculpture, fraught with anticipatory significance. (Not exactly sure what the significance is , but anyway, their relative heights make it look all artsy. :rock: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGEJKyFoNSo#t=0m25s
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I seems like people do not talk so much about "line" as they used to. Navka and Kostomarov had better "lines" than Belbin and Agosto in 2006, for instance. I would imagine that when it comes to lines, the longer the better. Tall and willowy beats short and petite (and blows short and not-so-petite out of the water altogether).
Tatiana Navka and Tanith Belbin are about the same height (Navka is 2 cm taller, apparently); it's blink and you'll miss it, but here they are side by side on the podium in Torino, and you can see that the difference is quite small. Some skaters just have better lines than others. Emily Samuelson, who's not tall and willowy (though obviously lovely and fit!) had wonderful lines.

Lines aren't that important compared to some things these days, though - such as speed and athleticism, as seen in twizzles and lifts.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, Tanith & Ben were put together as part of the 6.0 generation.

Here's a bunch of old US dancer videos. I'm not claiming they should have placed higher than they did in most cases, only that I liked the following programs enough by them to remember them after all these years.

Wynne & Druar do tap dancing 1990 US Nationals. The intro about the Air Force Academy and the Detroit skaters going there is really the heart of what happened at Arctic Edge later. It also has some hints about how to sell ice dance to the Olympic audience ;)
This is a team that needed smoother lifts, but their ability to do tap on ice makes me smile, and I love the part where they do the tap dance "heads together" stunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pixRtYmJ40U

Susie & Joe do the Charleston in 1989-I think they were a bit undermarked here. I wish I had a better vid to show. They really got the dance; a certain amount of higher ranked teams just didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUzHjLkGstw

Punsalan & Swallow " Race Cars" number to Yellow. The part about the cars going into the pits is just spot on :) This routine did not fit the rules of dance at the time when they had gone back to ballroom. It has too much 2 footed skating, for one thing, but I still like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWGT0rwc5aE

Punsalan & Swallow 1998 Worlds FD Tango (they never really broke through at worlds, but at this point in their careers, I liked them better than Bourne & Kraatz and Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, both of whom always finished ahead of them)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqvN2SSZgHo

Blumberg & Siebert 1984 Olympics FD. This is a team that had 2 problems:
1. competing against Torvill & Dean
2. A tendency to do stuff that was too hard for them and falling. I wish I could find a good copy of their Victor /Victoria pro number, and their Mme Butterfly pro number with the huge fans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyfosI-IcYY

Fox & Dalley do a nice Paso doble at the 1984 Olympics CD. This is just nicely done. Makes me smile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IvHVoLYjFM

O'Connor & Millns 1975 Worlds FD (The first US ice dancers I was really ever aware of, although Schwomeyer & Sladky were earlier)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDqSgikyuao

Schwomeyer & Sladky 1972 (inventors of the Yankee Polka)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9TQ8JL7nBQ

2001 Belbin & Agosto Quickstep OD to Girls, Girls, Girls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6FZeJU_s2Y

Belbin & Agosto 2002 Sarajevo tribute FD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtoV0S83AA4

Belbin & Agosto close out 6.0 with with their Elvis number at 2003 Worlds in Washington DC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Z5cl8tnDE
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Doris, of you have specific videos to share of good US teams from the 6.0 era, please do!

I'm not Doris, but here are my faves, Judy Blumberg and Michael Seibert. OK, so they didn't win the Olympic Gold Medal in 1984 ;) OK, so Dick Button starts out by saying,"In practice this week she hasn't made it through once without falling -- just before the program she was in the dressing room putting make-up on her legs to hide the bruises." Still... :rock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z40wtId_A-M

Edited to add: Oh, I see Doris beat me to Blumberg and Seibert. (The 1982 dance was more fun than the 1984, though. :) )
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I remember O'Connor and Millns as my first ice dancers. And they won an Olympic bronze--no U.S. team managed another Olympic medal until Belbin and Agosto. I remember that O'Connor especially had a wonderful fluidity. I encountered her once, and she was rather petite, probably about 5'3", though that's just a guess.

One couple I liked a lot was Jamie Silverstein and Justin Pekarek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL0dxsVnrdw

Here's a favorite Roca/Sur program from Stars on Ice. The first section, they perform a quartet with pairs skaters Meno/Sand. This then morphs into the splendid Casi Un Bolero that Gordeyeva and Kulik perform to some of the same music. There's a simplicity and unfussiness about Roca and Sur's skating that I find so effective. No frills, no flinging their arms around. I also like that Renee keeps her hair short--it echoes the uncluttered nature of the skating. I really miss them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFbUBc2InfA
 
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KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Yes, Tanith & Ben were put together as part of the 6.0 generation.

Here's a bunch of old US dancer videos. I'm not claiming they should have placed higher than they did in most cases, only that I liked the following programs enough by them to remember them after all these years.

Wynne & Druar do tap dancing 1990 US Nationals. The intro about the Air Force Academy and the Detroit skaters going there is really the heart of what happened at Arctic Edge later. It also has some hints about how to sell ice dance to the Olympic audience ;)
This is a team that needed smoother lifts, but their ability to do tap on ice makes me smile, and I love the part where they do the tap dance "heads together" stunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pixRtYmJ40U

Susie & Joe do the Charleston in 1989-I think they were a bit undermarked here. I wish I had a better vid to show. They really got the dance; a certain amount of higher ranked teams just didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUzHjLkGstw

Susie & Joe - did a great Charleston. I was in Colorado Springs for a few days and watched them work on this routine. They finally won a bronze medal at the Goodwill Games after placing 4th at the 1990 Worlds in Halifax. They also spent some time talking with Gene Kelly re their tap dance routine and he gave them some helpful tips, they told me at the time.

Punsalan & Swallow " Race Cars" number to Yellow. The part about the cars going into the pits is just spot on :) This routine did not fit the rules of dance at the time when they had gone back to ballroom. It has too much 2 footed skating, for one thing, but I still like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWGT0rwc5aE

Punsalan & Swallow 1998 Worlds FD Tango (they never really broke through at worlds, but at this point in their careers, I liked them better than Bourne & Kraatz and Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, both of whom always finished ahead of them)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqvN2SSZgHo

Boy, does this mention bring back memories. Punsalan & Swallow trained with Sandy Hess at the time of the race car routine. In 1998 with their tango routine they finished the highest ever (6th place) in Minneapolis. They had moved to Shpilband at that time.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Oh, oh, oh! Jamie Silverstein! She could have been, should have been, was destined to become the greatest U.S. ice dancer of all time. She was not able to master her personal demons. :cry:

Such a shame. I remember that she had us at hello--the first time she skated on national TV, she was impossible to look away from. And Justin was at that time one of the few American born male ice dancers who had the skills and the talent to make an international splash. Lang's partner, Peter Tchernyshev, was of course Russian-born. Ben Agosto and Charlie White were still just a dream in the future.

This thread has been a great opportunity to do research. I went back and looked up Angelika Krylova to see how tall she was relative to her partner and read up about her post-eligible career. Man, I'm slow on the uptake. I didn't realize she was married to Camerlengo and was choreographing (and coaching) with him.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Such a shame. I remember that she had us at hello--the first time she skated on national TV, she was impossible to look away from. And Justin was at that time one of the few American born male ice dancers who had the skills and the talent to make an international splash. Lang's partner, Peter Tchernyshev, was of course Russian-born. Ben Agosto and Charlie White were still just a dream in the future.

This thread has been a great opportunity to do research. I went back and looked up Angelika Krylova to see how tall she was relative to her partner and read up about her post-eligible career. Man, I'm slow on the uptake. I didn't realize she was married to Camerlengo and was choreographing (and coaching) with him.
How is that possible? She was easy to find behind the boards at Worlds last year, and was very enthusiastic about W/P and P/B. Did you find the pictures of the two very cute kids that she and Camerlengo have?

Thanks to everyone who posted links. Youtube was loading so slowly for me that I couldn't watch much - but I had seen the Race Cars program before, and while technically it's not the most demanding, it is a lot of fun. I got a kick out of the fluff about Wynne/Druar - I can't imagine elite ice dancers being badly conditioned now! And coming back to the matter of Soviet/Russian skaters vs. Americans, I suspect back in those days the former had not just better training in ice dance but just a better training situation all around.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Aag...Buttercup, you have no idea how much skating I miss these days. Either the two hours they show on American TV are at a time when I'm not around, or they're hidden so I forget that they're on, or (Murphy's Law) the minute the TV goes on, a chatty friend phones me, and I can't bring myself to say "Though we haven't talked for six months, I'm going to hang up on you to watch TV." Or I'm doing office work. Drat, anyway. I caught the ice dancing of several couples on YouTube last year, which means I watched Davis/White to that splendid Die Fledermaus about a million times and got distracted before looking at the others.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I caught the ice dancing of several couples on YouTube last year, which means I watched Davis/White to that splendid Die Fledermaus about a million times and got distracted before looking at the others.
Oh, then you really must watch W/P and P/B too! Both teams were spectacular at Worlds, it was such a good event.

I went to see a performance of Die Fledermaus last summer (the operetta, not a skating one ;)) and it was so much fun.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Earlier in the thread was a bit of innocent discussion as to whether there is any possibility that Virtue/Moir would retire before the Olympics.

FYI, on a page posted yesterday, the Canadian Olympic Team website seems confident that V/M will compete in defense of their title:
"At Sochi 2014 they’ll look to be just the second ice dance team to repeat as Olympic champions, following Russians Pasha Grischuk and Evgeny Platov in 1994-1998."

Source:
Maple Leaf Moments: Skating to top
February 17, 2013
http://olympic.ca/news/team/maple-leaf-moments-skating-to-top
[With photos and a video, the page look backs at V/M's win in Vancouver.]​
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Will do, Buttercup.

I have never seen Fledermaus, though I've heard it on the radio. The overture always makes my heart beat faster. I think it's Johann Strauss's first operetta, and it just radiates the energy of a new beginning. There are four pieces that give me this feeling: the Fledermaus overture, the overture to Smetana's The Bartered Bride (pretty much the start of Czech national music), the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmila (Not his very first opera, but close, and Glinka is the father of Russian national music), and the first notes of Schuman's first symphony, the "Spring."
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I think that Davis/White will always be more easy to understand and follow by the judges, who are not necessarily very complex one's in their personality.
They have the flow, virtuos technique , speed and passion which is very transparent and easy to recognize.

All in all I find Virtue/Moir a much better couple. They are NOT doing comfortable things. They behave like their decisions to create a programme is always has a mission to show some possible new direction of this sport. They offer an improvement to this sport year by year. They are innovative, and in this way THEY act like true Champions.
I know sometimes is more difficult to understand, they usually have a complex scenario behind their programme.


About their Carmen:
I think it shows how Carmen won over Don Jose, even if she was killed by him.
The whole programme is like a dream and memory of Don Jose, waiting possibly his execution in the jail remembering the sexually-droven connection with Carmen.The ups and lows. It was NOT at all a romantic relationship between this 2, they have been addicted to each other.

Even the missing red colour shows that it is a memory from the past. It is very common to use black (dress) and white (the ice) in coloured movie citing the acts happened in the past time.

I find it incredibly talented and meaningful.

I love both teams, D/W always should be my VERY proud silver medalist and lots of GOLD after Sochi. :)
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
All in all I find Virtue/Moir a much better couple. They are NOT doing comfortable things. They behave like their decisions to create a programme is always has a mission to show some possible new direction of this sport. They offer an improvement to this sport year by year. They are innovative, and in this way THEY act like true Champions.
I know sometimes is more difficult to understand, they usually have a complex scenario behind their programme.
Umbrellas, Mahler and Funny Face were innovative and uncomfortable?

Look, I prefer V/M to D/W, too, and find their skating technically strong but with greater refinement and polish than D/W's. But I don't consider either team great artistic visionaries (not a surprise, with Zoueva now responsible for their training), despite the attempt to sell as Carmen as though it's the most original thing ever. And I feel that D/W have also challenged themselves artistically at times, such as the Bollywood program or the tango FD they had in 2011.
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
[I feel that D/W have also challenged themselves artistically at times, such as the Bollywood program or the tango FD they had in 2011.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they did, I agree with that. They especially challanged themselves with the Tango programme, which was their weakest programme but still. They won the World with that challange. In that year the real challange was V/M latin dance programme.

I agree with you conserning to D/W, I like them as I said that!
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I know sometimes is more difficult to understand, they usually have a complex scenario behind their programme.

About their Carmen:
I think it shows how Carmen won over Don Jose, even if she was killed by him.
The whole programme is like a dream and memory of Don Jose, waiting possibly his execution in the jail remembering the sexually-droven connection with Carmen.The ups and lows. It was NOT at all a romantic relationship between this 2, they have been addicted to each other.

Even the missing red colour shows that it is a memory from the past. It is very common to use black (dress) and white (the ice) in coloured movie citing the acts happened in the past time.

I find it incredibly talented and meaningful.

My opinion:

I suppose it's natural for certain standard musical pieces to evoke a sense of storytelling. That said, if a skating routine must have this sort of verbal explanation to follow what is happening, then it means the skaters aren't doing a good enough job on the ice in terms of interpreting the piece.

I'd rather the skating speak for itself. Carmen is a difficult, innovative, and interesting ice dance. It can stand on its own merit. It doesn't need an appendix.

I always hit the mute button when the commentator begins, "They're skating to blahblahblah. This dance represents the soul of a dead raven, clawing its way through the arctic ice shelf in search of the single butterfly whose fluttering wings can change the course of history and save the endangered buffalo. She is portraying the buffalo, he the butterfly. The ice is the Arctic. The blades of their skates represent the piercing and plaintive squeak of the raven."
 
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