Davis & White to regain World title? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Davis & White to regain World title?

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
V/M's parking spot is reserved from 6AM. No rest for the reigning OGMs, I guess. ;)

we here in North America have watched the Russians and the French win everything in Ice Dance for years!!!!! I hope neither team retires. And there ARE teams the meld the best aspects of both. I look forward to watching the Shib Sibs in the coming years, for example. Let's all enjoy this NA domination while we can.
And here I thought it we should enjoy good skating regardless of nationality, not "NA domination". If you would like to point out the NA teams that were better than Navka/Kostomarov, Anissina/Peizerat, Krylova/Ovsyannikov, Grishuk/Platov, Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponemarenko... please, do go ahead. I'm curious, maybe I can hit Youtube and enjoy some underrated teams. BTW, other than A/P, I am not sure who these French teams are; DelSchoes only won Worlds once, they deserved it, and they were a famously underrated team during their career. Actually, A/P have the OGM, but only won Worlds once themselves. So much for world domination.

Personally I find V/M stunningly good but not particularly engaging most of the time (I was super impressed when I saw them live, however). I also find D/W considerably more flawed than the judges do, and hate Meryl's lift positions - though I respect their technical skill. I sincerely hope both teams retire post-Sochi and leave the field open so that we can have some excitement and suspense. Lest I be accused of being wholly prejudiced in favor of Euro teams, my favorite sets of programs in the Olympic season were V/M's and F/S's, I liked the Shibs when I saw them at 2009 JW (but I don't think Marina knows what to do with a sibling team), admired Crone/Poirier for their risk-taking and Samuelson/Bates for their cute 2008-9 OD and Emily's divine toe point. I miss Emily. Oh, and I think Lynn and Logan are lovely.

I think I first became intrigued after watching D&W and V&M around 2009 maybe. So they are all I've really known together with the usual suspects K/N, P/B, W/P, etc. Each has a style that they pretty much don't stray too far from maybe with the exception of V/M, so that's where I'm coming from. Nationalities; which is dominating which is not doesn't interest me much. I just like interesting dancing:love:
Honestly, I don't think any team is showing great stylistic range these days. Even P/B are less adventurous then they used to be. My brief love affair with ice dance (begun at 2008 Worlds, peaked the following season) appears to be at an end. Maybe the Finnstep SD will rekindle it.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Sorry, Buttercup, but NA dance teams aren't go to retire just because you wish they would.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The NA dominance is just as much how extremely weak the European teams have become as anything else. The current top Russian teams are by far the weakest in their history, and before them even teams like Domnina & Shabalin and Lobacheva & Averbuhk were their weakest #1 teams in history, despite that both teams won a single World title and single Olympic medal. It is quite possible if D&W retired that a team like Weaver & Poje if they recover would take over as the #1 team. The Europeans are just weak now in dance, and hence why they are not on top.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
V/M's parking spot is reserved from 6AM. No rest for the reigning OGMs, I guess. ;)


And here I thought it we should enjoy good skating regardless of nationality, not "NA domination". If you would like to point out the NA teams that were better than Navka/Kostomarov, Anissina/Peizerat, Krylova/Ovsyannikov, Grishuk/Platov, Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponemarenko... please, do go ahead. I'm curious, maybe I can hit Youtube and enjoy some underrated teams. BTW, other than A/P, I am not sure who these French teams are; DelSchoes only won Worlds once, they deserved it, and they were a famously underrated team during their career. Actually, A/P have the OGM, but only won Worlds once themselves. So much for world domination.

Personally I find V/M stunningly good but not particularly engaging most of the time (I was super impressed when I saw them live, however). I also find D/W considerably more flawed than the judges do, and hate Meryl's lift positions - though I respect their technical skill. I sincerely hope both teams retire post-Sochi and leave the field open so that we can have some excitement and suspense. Lest I be accused of being wholly prejudiced in favor of Euro teams, my favorite sets of programs in the Olympic season were V/M's and F/S's, I liked the Shibs when I saw them at 2009 JW (but I don't think Marina knows what to do with a sibling team), admired Crone/Poirier for their risk-taking and Samuelson/Bates for their cute 2008-9 OD and Emily's divine toe point. I miss Emily. Oh, and I think Lynn and Logan are lovely.


Honestly, I don't think any team is showing great stylistic range these days. Even P/B are less adventurous then they used to be. My brief love affair with ice dance (begun at 2008 Worlds, peaked the following season) appears to be at an end. Maybe the Finnstep SD will rekindle it.

I think many would say Blumberg and siebert were underrated and robbed in 1984 b/k were robbed in 98 and 02 and I think maybe from reading us journalist and canadian journalist that after t/d retired there was never a time when a na team was not deserving of a World title from the aforementioned b/s all the way to b/a and Marie France team
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Buttercup, for me it isn't a matter of wishing permanent NA dominance but just delight that after generations (literally) where few from North America could make a mark, we suddenly have the top two teams in the world. Of course, behind those two teams are two wonderful Russian coaches, so it isn't as simple as that, I understand. But keep in mind, in the U.S. at least, we're going nowhere fast in the other three disciplines. It's a bright light in a dark tunnel to see D/W and V/M doing so well.

This doesn't mean they're better than Klimova/Ponomarenko (who could be?) or any of the other grand Soviet/Russian/European pairs. But they're right up there near the peak of the pyramid. If some great Russian couple comes along, I know I'll love them, the way I adore Takahashi in men's singles and Asada and Kim in ladies' singles. But it is nice (maybe it's the lower part of my nature; ah, well) to be able to rejoice in North American ice dancing splendor for however long it lasts. I don't need the next top couples to be North American, but I sure do love watching these.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Sorry, Buttercup, but NA dance teams aren't go to retire just because you wish they would.
Thank you, Chuck, for completely missing my point - which, in the part that you referenced, is that I'd like these two teams to retire and new contenders to emerge. Five seasons of the same two teams dominating, regardless of nationality, is more than enough in any discipline. I'd be bored with ladies if it had been only Yuna and Mao forever, lovely and talented as they both are.

Also, way to miss the list of NA skaters that I did mention, some of whom have unfortunately retired. Or are you only familiar with the top two?

The NA dominance is just as much how extremely weak the European teams have become as anything else. The current top Russian teams are by far the weakest in their history, and before them even teams like Domnina & Shabalin and Lobacheva & Averbuhk were their weakest #1 teams in history, despite that both teams won a single World title and single Olympic medal.
I think this is largely true; I love P/B, but they are not perfect by any means - and for all that B/S have improved, I can't imagine them being Russian no. 1s in the past. I'm actually not a huge fan of some of the past Russian teams (N/K made me drop ice dance back in the day), though I do think DomShabs were pretty good, or at least, quite promising until the injuries hit. Their Tango Romatica performances at Euros and Olys were fantastic, and I choose to remember that rather than the horrid OD.

I think many would say Blumberg and siebert were underrated and robbed in 1984 b/k were robbed in 98 and 02 and I think maybe from reading us journalist and canadian journalist that after t/d retired there was never a time when a na team was not deserving of a World title from the aforementioned b/s all the way to b/a and Marie France team
B/K were robbed in 2002? That's a new one; I thought it was D/V who were robbed that year. I've heard the argument that they were robbed in 1998, and while that's not an unusual opinion, it is by no means universal - a fair number of fans and experts would say that they were placed correctly in 1998 and said that 15 years ago, too. I did stop with K/P as I'm less familiar with dance teams of the past. But Blumberg and Seibert were robbed? By who, T/D with Bolero? B/A were underrated? I'm really at a loss as to how anyone could think that. The latter won silvers at Worlds and the Olympics, was there any year in which their skating merited more than that?

I lived in the US during past Olympics, so I know how the media there often frames the competitive narratives, and it's quite potent (as a kid I certainly believed that Retton was better than Szabo). But we're not casual fans, and I think it's important to look past that.

Buttercup, for me it isn't a matter of wishing permanent NA dominance but just delight that after generations (literally) where few from North America could make a mark, we suddenly have the top two teams in the world. Of course, behind those two teams are two wonderful Russian coaches, so it isn't as simple as that, I understand. But keep in mind, in the U.S. at least, we're going nowhere fast in the other three disciplines. It's a bright light in a dark tunnel to see D/W and V/M doing so well.

This doesn't mean they're better than Klimova/Ponomarenko (who could be?) or any of the other grand Soviet/Russian/European pairs. But they're right up there near the peak of the pyramid. If some great Russian couple comes along, I know I'll love them, the way I adore Takahashi in men's singles and Asada and Kim in ladies' singles. But it is nice (maybe it's the lower part of my nature; ah, well) to be able to rejoice in North American ice dancing splendor for however long it lasts. I don't need the next top couples to be North American, but I sure do love watching these.
Olympia, I never for a moment thought that you would pick skaters to cheer for based on nationality alone! I know that you're an open-minded fan and appreciate that very much - I think that's just the sort of thing we should aspire to be.

I just wish we could get away for this whole "Euros bad, NA good" (or vice versa) level of discourse. Being a fan from a country with no horse in this race, I find it really tiresome.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
T/d did not rob b/s but they were robbed of bronze to a lot of people. When the journalists in 2010 and now say north Americans have a fair shot and they no longer are held down and dw and vm are taking revenge for all the robbed teams from north America you can see why I would write what I wrote. When Dacia and white say now ice dancers really have to earn their wins and medals and that wasn't true when Russians were winning it is also clear there. They are talking about North American teams always being robbed and never legitimately losing. Or few teams actually legitimately LosT to Russian teams. I know I'm not a casual fan but davis and white are saying these things to casual fans and non casual fans.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
T/d did not rob b/s but they were robbed of bronze to a lot of people. When the journalists in 2010 and now say north Americans have a fair shot and they no longer are held down and dw and vm are taking revenge for all the robbed teams from north America you can see why I would write what I wrote. When Dacia and white say now ice dancers really have to earn their wins and medals and that wasn't true when Russians were winning it is also clear there. They are talking about North American teams always being robbed and never legitimately losing. Or few teams actually legitimately LosT to Russian teams. I know I'm not a casual fan but davis and white are saying these things to casual fans and non casual fans.
So basically, the proof that ice dance is now fair and free of politics is that North Americans are winning? "We're the best so clearly ice dance is perfect now"? Er, color me unpersuaded. If people think NA teams were always robbed, then they must not have been paying attention, or didn't understand what they were seeing. If it's supposedly knowledgeable journalists, then they should be ashamed of themselves for such a simplistic PoV. I remember one US reporter arguing that the results of the OD in Vancouver showed that ice dance was finally fair, because V/M and D/W were rewarded after DomShabs inexplicably led following the CD. How can I take someone like that seriously? A lot of the wuzrobbing claims strike me as "because I liked my guys better", which is hardly objective.

All this doesn't take away from what D/W have accomplished; they are undeniably talented and hard-working. I just don't find their success to be proof of ice dance becoming entirely merit-based.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
yep I agree doctor, stir crazy. We need stuff to write about or things get rehashed or we really start talking about anything :) Some great battles this year though in men's women's and dance as usual.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
V/M's parking spot is reserved from 6AM. No rest for the reigning OGMs, I guess. ;)

LOL, what I recall from some old interviews: Moir by nature is an early bird who hops out of bed every morning with no problem. In contrast ;), the snooze button is Virtue's friend. Their daily competition for their special parking spot would be a good incentive to get moving, I suppose. :laugh:

It is quite possible if D&W retired that a team like Weaver & Poje if they recover would take over as the #1 team.

BTW, I had copied the tweet below into a different thread, but as a little FYI here too:
Ryan Pyette ‏@RyanatLFPress
Skate Canada's Mike Slipchuk said Tessa Virtue cramping at 4C won't have significance (for worlds). Weaver-Poje fate to come soon.
3:38 PM - 14 Feb 13

How many days till worlds?:popcorn:

23 days until Worlds, according to the official countdown clock (timed to the second) here :):
 
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all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
If Chan doesn't win gold medal, it's likely that V/M would win gold medal as long as V/M skates without any major mistakes:)

How is this likely with no Canadian judges on the dance panel? Is it because the US judge will take pity and vote for V/M over D/W?
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
How is this likely with no Canadian judges on the dance panel? Is it because the US judge will take pity and vote for V/M over D/W?

No. Worlds is going to be held in Canada, and London is Tessa's hometown, so judges can't just ignore that.

And I don't think having a US judge on ice dance panel would help D/W, or work as a disadvantage to V/M.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
So basically, the proof that ice dance is now fair and free of politics is that North Americans are winning? "We're the best so clearly ice dance is perfect now"? Er, color me unpersuaded. If people think NA teams were always robbed, then they must not have been paying attention, or didn't understand what they were seeing. If it's supposedly knowledgeable journalists, then they should be ashamed of themselves for such a simplistic PoV. I remember one US reporter arguing that the results of the OD in Vancouver showed that ice dance was finally fair, because V/M and D/W were rewarded after DomShabs inexplicably led following the CD. How can I take someone like that seriously? A lot of the wuzrobbing claims strike me as "because I liked my guys better", which is hardly objective.

All this doesn't take away from what D/W have accomplished; they are undeniably talented and hard-working. I just don't find their success to be proof of ice dance becoming entirely merit-based.

The first sentence is the view and what I have read and heard from journalists and columnist and find it very annoying when it comes from skaters to.

Maybe in order to be humble and not so we're the best Americans ever Davis and white have both said other Americans were as good as them but just couldn't win because the system was horrible and russian teams had politics but now politics is less so Americans can finally win. Read it all the time.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
The first sentence is the view and what I have read and heard from journalists and columnist and find it very annoying when it comes from skaters to.

Maybe in order to be humble and not so we're the best Americans ever Davis and white have both said other Americans were as good as them but just couldn't win because the system was horrible and russian teams had politics but now politics is less so Americans can finally win. Read it all the time.
Well, I can hardly expect them to follow pangtongfan's reasoning and claim that they are not that great a team but the Russians are even worse :p

The argument that I do think is appropriate is that the IJS makes it possible for a team to get constant and focused feedback on their skating and the programs, so they can improve their skating in an effective way - and with the right combination of talent, hard work and smart coaching, you can go very far with that. Also, that ice dance teams are judged more on merit than on seniority than they used to be (else D/W would have had to wait until B/A retired before getting any recognition). There's no need for anyone - skaters, journalists or fans -to drag nationality into it.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
No. Worlds is going to be held in Canada, and London is Tessa's hometown, so judges can't just ignore that.

And I don't think having a US judge on ice dance panel would help D/W, or work as a disadvantage to V/M.

Why should judges care that London is Tessa's hometown? I doubt most of them even know that; even if they did, according to the IJS component descriptions, no points are awarded for skating in one's hometown.

It doesn't help V/M that there is no CAN judge on the panel. Oh, and BTW, there is no CAN judge on the men's or ladies panel as well---only on the Pairs.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I think this photo is striking:
It's a close-up shot of White enjoying a nice hug moments after his Four Continents FD ... juxtaposed against a fuzzy background showing his buddy/rival Moir about to take the ice.

[;) The important question is whether Mathman can give all of us more much-needed laughter with another dose of his nonpartisan witty commentary. :laugh:]
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Well, I can hardly expect them to follow pangtongfan's reasoning and claim that they are not that great a team but the Russians are even worse :p

The argument that I do think is appropriate is that the IJS makes it possible for a team to get constant and focused feedback on their skating and the programs, so they can improve their skating in an effective way - and with the right combination of talent, hard work and smart coaching, you can go very far with that. Also, that ice dance teams are judged more on merit than on seniority than they used to be (else D/W would have had to wait until B/A retired before getting any recognition). There's no need for anyone - skaters, journalists or fans -to drag nationality into it.

They always drag nationality into it! When worlds last year was on and the previous year it was all about it! Sometimes they did bring in seniority and their only foray into non-american wins were legitimate would be about american pairings not staying together as long as russian teams were together. The teams having tendencies to break up was more about pairs than dance but it was brought into the dance discussion to. That the only reason why Russian Soviet teams won was not only ice dance politics and nationaliity but also they were together longer but neither reason had any kind of focus on them being the most talented and deserving. The only team to have its victories be seen as totally legitimate and deserved by north americans were really Torville and Dean. That's it!!
 
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