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Thread: Wagner vs. Suzuki

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    I hate to say it, but I wouldn't call Mao consistent either, Yuna easily wins in that regard. Caro and Mao both are capable of bombing themselves right off the podium. But that seems to make some people disregard what they are really cabaple of when they deliver. That's a shame, but we'll see at worlds anyway
    Caro had the worst meltdown of any skater in recent memory at the 2009 W. She repeated that at the 2010 Olympics. I can't even think of anyone who came close. Even skaters 2 or 3 levels below her.
    Mao seems a bit more consistent. I know she bombed a few times, but I honestly don't remember them to be so bad I had to close my eyes.

  2. #32
    Custom Title christinaskater's Avatar
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    I think they will be evenly matched.

    I see Akiko scoring 132-133 if skated to full potential together with a clean SP.

    I see Ashley scoring 133-134 if skated to perfection!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Caro had the worst meltdown of any skater in recent memory at the 2009 W. She repeated that at the 2010 Olympics. I can't even think of anyone who came close. Even skaters 2 or 3 levels below her.
    Mao seems a bit more consistent. I know she bombed a few times, but I honestly don't remember them to be so bad I had to close my eyes.
    Well, Alissa Czisny comes to mind in recent memory

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I think Akiko is doing as well as she hope to be. She's more of a show girl than a star. Steady skater with good programs, and put her heart and soul into it, but she doesn't have the "IT" factor that can translate to points that the top girls have. Her "IT" factor is her P/E, but it isn't worth much.

    I would give her close to 10 for some of her past performances, but that would only lift her to one or two points higher.

    Someone like Mao Asada who can hit a 3A or 3F-3Lo, and suddenly her score potential go up by like 8 points.

    She was the rightful winner of the NHK 2012, no doubt about that.
    Well, the general public thinks that ladies figure skating is just another form of beauty pageant, anyway. Your speed and deep edges and musicality don't mean much if you aren't pretty enough. Do average Americans care about how Wagner won Nationals?

    I don't think Asada's 3F+3Lo will be ratified, but that's where lobbying matters. Anything can happen if Asada could win the NHK with four popped triples.
    Last edited by mikeko666; 02-17-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #35
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    I don't think no one in the current crop of lady skaters is quite pageant-worthy, except for a few outliers like Korpi. Yuna is also attractive but she is not quite the Venus de Milo either. The playing field is really quite even in terms of beauty. So, Akiko, for me, is plenty competitive in this sense. If Akiko keeps delivering electrifying performances as she is doing now, maybe the balance will tip in her favor.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Well, Alissa Czisny comes to mind in recent memory
    Sigh.

  7. #37
    Custom Title christinaskater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    I don't think no one in the current crop of lady skaters is quite pageant-worthy, except for a few outliers like Korpi. Yuna is also attractive but she is not quite the Venus de Milo either. The playing field is really quite even in terms of beauty. So, Akiko, for me, is plenty competitive in this sense. If Akiko keeps delivering electrifying performances as she is doing now, maybe the balance will tip in her favor.
    She is very beautiful in my eyes.

    Akiko has shown especially in 4CC that she has the command of a champion and a determination to win.

    She is not just a showgirl on ice. She is an artist baring her soul and her life in those skates. She is one of my favourite skaters of all-time. Her musicality is simply beyond words.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    If caro does 3T3T, 3lo, 2A in the SP, and 6 clean triples in the LP, yes, Yuna would have to be pristine clean to beat her. If yuna makes one mistake (pop/fall) she won't place above Caro.
    Easily? Are you out of your mind?
    If Caro can her hit 3T+3T and 3Lo, 2A in SP. Her content is still 2 points less than Kim, and given higher +GOE average base on harder element, Kim will still out score in GOE too. Their PCS will be within one point.

    For LP, when was the last time Caro hit a clean 6 triples program, let alone 7?? Its been years. She is still likely to popped and stepout and messy landing as much as other skaters.

  9. #39
    Custom Title verysmuchso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christinaskater View Post
    She is very beautiful in my eyes.

    Akiko has shown especially in 4CC that she has the command of a champion and a determination to win.

    She is not just a showgirl on ice. She is an artist baring her soul and her life in those skates. She is one of my favourite skaters of all-time. Her musicality is simply beyond words.
    She has great eye contact as well.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    The way Akiko skated at 4CC surpassed anything Ashley has put out so far, I feel. The jumps were on par and Akiko's spin had improved at 4CC, though I'd still say Ashley's spin is better than Akiko's. Akiko has always surpassed Ashley in terms of the speed and edges, and she was particularly good at 4CC.
    Suzuki's score at 4CC included a waxel as opposed to her 2axel/3toe. This would have given her circa 132 points and that WITH the muted PCS scores.

    Ergo, if Suzuki EVER went completely clean, she'd score 130+ which is more than Wagner could ever achieve IMO.

    Problem is, I'm not sure Suzuki will ever have the mental strength to have two programs that are completely clean.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Suzuki's score at 4CC included a waxel as opposed to her 2axel/3toe. This would have given her circa 132 points and that WITH the muted PCS scores.

    Ergo, if Suzuki EVER went completely clean, she'd score 130+ which is more than Wagner could ever achieve IMO.

    Problem is, I'm not sure Suzuki will ever have the mental strength to have two programs that are completely clean.
    That is the challenge for her.

  12. #42
    Custom Title christinaskater's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Lmmjenb_8

    This is one of my favourite performances ever. I love it when Chris said, it was a ballerina's performance transposed on the ice!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Here's my comparison.

    Lutz: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko sometimes doesn't get edge call. Ashley is sure thing.
    Flip: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's flip is actually her strong jump. It looks nice, clean, good flow, good landing, good attack. Akiko's flip is ok.
    Loop: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's loop has better entrance, cleaner landing. Akiko's loop takes longer to set up. The landing isn't as smooth.
    Salchow: Akiko = Ashley. Both are just ok.
    Toe: Akiko > Ashley. She can do 2A-3T and 3T-3T regularly. Ashley has trouble rotating her 3T.
    Spins: Ashley > Akiko.
    Steps: Akiko > Ashley.

    Skating Skills: Akiko > Ashley. She's fast, has deep edge, her steps are more difficult, and she covers the ice better.
    PE, CH, IN: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko is a performer, and she always has interesting programs. Win these 3 categories easily unless she bombs.
    TR: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley has more transitions.

    Generally, if both skate cleanly, Akiko should be around 64+ for PCS, Ashley should be around 62+ for PCS.
    GOE, Ashley should beat Akiko easily, should definitely make up for the PCS difference.

    I personally believe they are about equal, whoever lands more triples should win. Ashley got too much benefit of the doubt where as Akiko got none, and I have a big problem with that.
    The only thing I disagree with here is putting Ashley ahead of Akiko in Transitions. Yes Ashley has more transitions but in most cases I would rather quality over quantity. I think a lot of the in between turns and steps of Ashley look stiff and scratchy, and would rather her do less with better quality.

    However I agree that in terms of technical ability they are on par, but Akiko is way ahead in PC. Although as we can all agree Akiko has been underscored alot over the past season in PC so I hope she gets what she deserves at worlds. In my opinion though the highest she could place with the current ladies field is 4th.
    I predict....
    1. Yuna Kim
    2. Mao Asada
    3. Carolina Kostner
    4. Akiko Suzuki
    5. Elizaveta Tuktamisheva
    6. Ashley Wagner
    7. Kanako Murakami
    8. Adelina Sotnikova
    9. Kiira Korpi
    10. Valentina Marchei
    11. Gracie Gold
    12. Zijun Li
    13. Kaetlyn Osmond

    Some I am not to sure about and I have then said who I want to place where. However it would be hilarious if this happened because no third ladies spot for US and no 2nd spot for Canada!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Here's my comparison.

    Lutz: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko sometimes doesn't get edge call. Ashley is sure thing.
    Flip: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's flip is actually her strong jump. It looks nice, clean, good flow, good landing, good attack. Akiko's flip is ok.
    Loop: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's loop has better entrance, cleaner landing. Akiko's loop takes longer to set up. The landing isn't as smooth.
    Salchow: Akiko = Ashley. Both are just ok.
    Toe: Akiko > Ashley. She can do 2A-3T and 3T-3T regularly. Ashley has trouble rotating her 3T.
    Spins: Ashley > Akiko.
    Steps: Akiko > Ashley.
    Akiko's double axel is super spinny (she initiates rotation off the take-off by throwing her right arm across), which is bothersome to me. Sometimes she avoids the Flutz call, but all-in-all Ashley gains on Akiko just by virtue of her transitions into and out of the jumps, and the lack of excessive telegraphing. The top Japanese ladies are all chronic telegraphers for most of their jumps (either they telegraph or they use VERY SLOOOOOW entrance/take-off mechanics to buy themselves time).

    Spins should be "Ashley >>>>>>>> Akiko" Akiko's spins are beyond bad, and it's something her coaches are likely working on, though I haven't seen any improvement in them.

    Steps I think they are about equal (however if the transitions in and out of their technical elements is to be factored in, in that case I would even give Wagner the edge...).

    Skating Skills: Akiko > Ashley. She's fast, has deep edge, her steps are more difficult, and she covers the ice better.
    PE, CH, IN: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko is a performer, and she always has interesting programs. Win these 3 categories easily unless she bombs.
    TR: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley has more transitions.
    I still have no clue what Akiko's program is about, and TBH it seems a bit junior'ish. I like her rather youthful energy and her smile (so few ladies genuinely smile), but really I'm lost as to what the program is about. Really Ashley's programs are clearly superior to Akiko's in terms of performance quality, relatability, and choreography. I hear people say she's a real performer... What exactly is she performing. I hear something about a peacock. What is she, what's going on in the program. We get that from Ashley's program, and Mao Asada's. I'm totally lost with Akiko. It's like Gracie Gold with a bit better choreography/skating skills, but worse jumps.

    Skating Skills they're about equal, Ashley has better transitions, Ashley executes things better than Akiko (better extension, etc.). Ashley seems to be more of a balanced skater, which is why she's able to do these things in and out of jumps and jump with less telegraphing compared to Akiko. Akiko is faster.

    Generally, if both skate cleanly, Akiko should be around 64+ for PCS, Ashley should be around 62+ for PCS.
    GOE, Ashley should beat Akiko easily, should definitely make up for the PCS difference.

    I personally believe they are about equal, whoever lands more triples should win. Ashley got too much benefit of the doubt where as Akiko got none, and I have a big problem with that.
    If both hit their programs the judges will place Ashley ahead of Akiko, and Ashley will beat her PCS score.

    Akiko really needs to fix her "form issues." It makes the whole program look rather messy. She just doesn't come across as a skater who has nice lines and extension, while Ashley does. The whole performance suffers because of it.

    What I like about Suzuki is her youthful energy and her smile. She always seems like she's happy to be performing, and that's refreshing to see these days.

  15. #45
    Custom Title christinaskater's Avatar
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    Akiko is one of the best artist and dancers in the sport. She may not have the full biellmann extensions to her spins, but her spins are very good and gets level 4's.

    I appreciate an artist / musical skater taking risk by skating to music without a "mainstream" story and bringing the people through her journey of emotions through the song.

    I don't think Akiko is a "messy" skater. I dislike one position in her camel spin but the rest of her program is beautiful!

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