Wagner vs. Suzuki | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Wagner vs. Suzuki

christinaskater

Medalist
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Suzuki's score at 4CC included a waxel as opposed to her 2axel/3toe. This would have given her circa 132 points and that WITH the muted PCS scores.

Ergo, if Suzuki EVER went completely clean, she'd score 130+ which is more than Wagner could ever achieve IMO.

Problem is, I'm not sure Suzuki will ever have the mental strength to have two programs that are completely clean.

That is the challenge for her.
 

snsd

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Here's my comparison.

Lutz: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko sometimes doesn't get edge call. Ashley is sure thing.
Flip: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's flip is actually her strong jump. It looks nice, clean, good flow, good landing, good attack. Akiko's flip is ok.
Loop: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's loop has better entrance, cleaner landing. Akiko's loop takes longer to set up. The landing isn't as smooth.
Salchow: Akiko = Ashley. Both are just ok.
Toe: Akiko > Ashley. She can do 2A-3T and 3T-3T regularly. Ashley has trouble rotating her 3T.
Spins: Ashley > Akiko.
Steps: Akiko > Ashley.

Skating Skills: Akiko > Ashley. She's fast, has deep edge, her steps are more difficult, and she covers the ice better.
PE, CH, IN: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko is a performer, and she always has interesting programs. Win these 3 categories easily unless she bombs.
TR: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley has more transitions.

Generally, if both skate cleanly, Akiko should be around 64+ for PCS, Ashley should be around 62+ for PCS.
GOE, Ashley should beat Akiko easily, should definitely make up for the PCS difference.

I personally believe they are about equal, whoever lands more triples should win. Ashley got too much benefit of the doubt where as Akiko got none, and I have a big problem with that.

The only thing I disagree with here is putting Ashley ahead of Akiko in Transitions. Yes Ashley has more transitions but in most cases I would rather quality over quantity. I think a lot of the in between turns and steps of Ashley look stiff and scratchy, and would rather her do less with better quality.

However I agree that in terms of technical ability they are on par, but Akiko is way ahead in PC. Although as we can all agree Akiko has been underscored alot over the past season in PC so I hope she gets what she deserves at worlds. In my opinion though the highest she could place with the current ladies field is 4th.
I predict....
1. Yuna Kim
2. Mao Asada
3. Carolina Kostner
4. Akiko Suzuki
5. Elizaveta Tuktamisheva
6. Ashley Wagner
7. Kanako Murakami
8. Adelina Sotnikova
9. Kiira Korpi
10. Valentina Marchei
11. Gracie Gold
12. Zijun Li
13. Kaetlyn Osmond

Some I am not to sure about and I have then said who I want to place where. However it would be hilarious if this happened because no third ladies spot for US and no 2nd spot for Canada!
 

SkateNater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Here's my comparison.

Lutz: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko sometimes doesn't get edge call. Ashley is sure thing.
Flip: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's flip is actually her strong jump. It looks nice, clean, good flow, good landing, good attack. Akiko's flip is ok.
Loop: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley's loop has better entrance, cleaner landing. Akiko's loop takes longer to set up. The landing isn't as smooth.
Salchow: Akiko = Ashley. Both are just ok.
Toe: Akiko > Ashley. She can do 2A-3T and 3T-3T regularly. Ashley has trouble rotating her 3T.
Spins: Ashley > Akiko.
Steps: Akiko > Ashley.
Akiko's double axel is super spinny (she initiates rotation off the take-off by throwing her right arm across), which is bothersome to me. Sometimes she avoids the Flutz call, but all-in-all Ashley gains on Akiko just by virtue of her transitions into and out of the jumps, and the lack of excessive telegraphing. The top Japanese ladies are all chronic telegraphers for most of their jumps (either they telegraph or they use VERY SLOOOOOW entrance/take-off mechanics to buy themselves time).

Spins should be "Ashley >>>>>>>> Akiko" Akiko's spins are beyond bad, and it's something her coaches are likely working on, though I haven't seen any improvement in them.

Steps I think they are about equal (however if the transitions in and out of their technical elements is to be factored in, in that case I would even give Wagner the edge...).

Skating Skills: Akiko > Ashley. She's fast, has deep edge, her steps are more difficult, and she covers the ice better.
PE, CH, IN: Akiko > Ashley. Akiko is a performer, and she always has interesting programs. Win these 3 categories easily unless she bombs.
TR: Ashley > Akiko. Ashley has more transitions.
I still have no clue what Akiko's program is about, and TBH it seems a bit junior'ish. I like her rather youthful energy and her smile (so few ladies genuinely smile), but really I'm lost as to what the program is about. Really Ashley's programs are clearly superior to Akiko's in terms of performance quality, relatability, and choreography. I hear people say she's a real performer... What exactly is she performing. I hear something about a peacock. What is she, what's going on in the program. We get that from Ashley's program, and Mao Asada's. I'm totally lost with Akiko. It's like Gracie Gold with a bit better choreography/skating skills, but worse jumps.

Skating Skills they're about equal, Ashley has better transitions, Ashley executes things better than Akiko (better extension, etc.). Ashley seems to be more of a balanced skater, which is why she's able to do these things in and out of jumps and jump with less telegraphing compared to Akiko. Akiko is faster.

Generally, if both skate cleanly, Akiko should be around 64+ for PCS, Ashley should be around 62+ for PCS.
GOE, Ashley should beat Akiko easily, should definitely make up for the PCS difference.

I personally believe they are about equal, whoever lands more triples should win. Ashley got too much benefit of the doubt where as Akiko got none, and I have a big problem with that.

If both hit their programs the judges will place Ashley ahead of Akiko, and Ashley will beat her PCS score.

Akiko really needs to fix her "form issues." It makes the whole program look rather messy. She just doesn't come across as a skater who has nice lines and extension, while Ashley does. The whole performance suffers because of it.

What I like about Suzuki is her youthful energy and her smile. She always seems like she's happy to be performing, and that's refreshing to see these days.
 

christinaskater

Medalist
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Akiko is one of the best artist and dancers in the sport. She may not have the full biellmann extensions to her spins, but her spins are very good and gets level 4's.

I appreciate an artist / musical skater taking risk by skating to music without a "mainstream" story and bringing the people through her journey of emotions through the song.

I don't think Akiko is a "messy" skater. I dislike one position in her camel spin but the rest of her program is beautiful!
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
It's like Gracie Gold with a bit better choreography/skating skills, but worse jumps.

I agreed with a few of your points but I think that last sentence just gave me a stroke...
 
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Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Although I prefer Akiko over Ashley as a skater and a performer, there seems so to be several reasons why she gets continually low-balled on PCS. Her body movements sometimes look awkward (on the contrary, I think Yuna and Mao know how to look natural and effortless every time they're competing), she is less superficially stylish and elegant than a lot of skaters, her relative lack of transitions and finally the federation support because she is her country's number 2 skater behind Mao Asada.
 

SkateNater

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Akiko is one of the best artist and dancers in the sport. She may not have the full biellmann extensions to her spins, but her spins are very good and gets level 4's.

I appreciate an artist / musical skater taking risk by skating to music without a "mainstream" story and bringing the people through her journey of emotions through the song.

I don't think Akiko is a "messy" skater. I dislike one position in her camel spin but the rest of her program is beautiful!

Yet you still can't tell me what km watching when she performs her programs.

To the poster below you, that's fine. Gracie's program suffers the same as Suzuki's. I have no idea what it's about. She just has better transitions and a bit better choreography. However Gold has a more polished look on the ice.

Form does matter, even in skating.

Also I didn't say anything about a Biellman spin. You don't need to be a contortionist to be polished. Look at Michelle Kwan.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I still have no clue what Akiko's program is about, and TBH it seems a bit junior'ish. I like her rather youthful energy and her smile (so few ladies genuinely smile), but really I'm lost as to what the program is about. Really Ashley's programs are clearly superior to Akiko's in terms of performance quality, relatability, and choreography.
Yet you still can't tell me what km watching when she performs her programs.

To the poster below you, that's fine. Gracie's program suffers the same as Suzuki's. I have no idea what it's about. She just has better transitions and a bit better choreography. However Gold has a more polished look on the ice.
Can you point me to the place in the PCS overview where it says "all programs must have an easy to understand concept"? It's exactly this kind of approach that gets us all these Carmens and Swan Lakes - oh noes, if the music's not familiar it'll be too difficult for people to understand. :rolleye:

I've stayed out of this thread, as I don't want to criticize Ashley Wagner, a skater I admire, just because I like Akiko Suzuki better. But I think Akiko has challenged herself far more than Ashley has in terms of expanding her range as a performer and choosing diverse pieces of music and program concepts. Yes, it's easier for the audience to understand that Ashley was the Black Swan; it was made so obvious in the program that it would be hard not to. Some of Akiko's programs are more subtle and less obvious, but this does not make them lacking artistically (I liked Morozombie's take on her O program from this season). Where you got juniorish, I have no idea; you could say that about Mao's SP this season, maybe, but Akiko's? Of all the critiques that can be made about her, and there certainly are some, that one shouldn't even be on the list.

Both Wagner and Suzuki are wonderfully committed to their programs and choreo; for me, it comes across as more genuine in Suzuki's case, but I like seeing that kind of enthusiasm in any skater. I respect both ladies for sticking it out in the sport despite challenges and disappointing results along the way. Suzuki is still dealing with the challenge of not being her country's #1 skater, which certainly doesn't help her scores. She has been an underrated skater for years.

To suggest that Gracie Gold has a more polished look than Akiko Suzuki is laughable. Gold is a promising young skater, but she still has a way to go when it comes to presentation, polish, sophistication etc. She shouldn't even be part of this discussion. Maybe a few years down the line she'll be where Suzuki and Wagner are today.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I still have no clue what Akiko's program is about, and TBH it seems a bit junior'ish. I like her rather youthful energy and her smile (so few ladies genuinely smile), but really I'm lost as to what the program is about. Really Ashley's programs are clearly superior to Akiko's in terms of performance quality, relatability, and choreography. I hear people say she's a real performer... What exactly is she performing. I hear something about a peacock. What is she, what's going on in the program. We get that from Ashley's program, and Mao Asada's. I'm totally lost with Akiko. It's like Gracie Gold with a bit better choreography/skating skills, but worse jumps.

Skating Skills they're about equal, Ashley has better transitions, Ashley executes things better than Akiko (better extension, etc.). Ashley seems to be more of a balanced skater, which is why she's able to do these things in and out of jumps and jump with less telegraphing compared to Akiko. Akiko is faster.


What, exactly, is Ashley's LP about? Is she supposed to be Delilah? If so, what's she doing? Seducing Samson? Taunting him? Or getting crushed by a falling temple? In a way, Ashley's program is just as abstract as Akiko's. The difference is that Ashley is using much more familiar music, which *tells* us what the program is about even before Ashley starts skating.

Also, I completely disagree that Ashley and Akiko are equal in skating skills. Akiko's flow, speed, edge control, knee action >>>> Ashley's. I've seen Akiko live and she is just so fast and smooth over the ice.

Can you point me to the place in the PCS overview where it says "all programs must have an easy to understand concept"? It's exactly this kind of approach that gets us all these Carmens and Swan Lakes - oh noes, if the music's not familiar it'll be too difficult for people to understand. :rolleye:

ITA. "Relatability" is not in the criteria for PCS and I hope it will never be.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Um..It's already in the ice dance rules.

Rule 610, communication 1738; Adjustments to the Choreography PCS mark

IF THERE IS A STORY OR THEME IN THE PROGRAM AND IT IS NOT CLEARLY UNDERSTANDABLE TO THE AUDIENCE: - 1.0 TO - 2.0

It's OK to have no theme or story though ;)
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Um..It's already in the ice dance rules.

Rule 610, communication 1738; Adjustments to the Choreography PCS mark

It's OK to have no theme or story though ;)
I don't think there's a contradiction between this and my earlier post. There are many programs, in ice dance and in the other disciplines, that are just about skating to the music with no real concept; and neither Suzuki nor Wagner is competing in ice dance :D

BTW, are you sure it's in communication 1738? I couldn't find it there. Certainly it isn't something that is highlighted by the ISU via their main site (though that's not saying much).
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Um..It's already in the ice dance rules.

Rule 610, communication 1738; Adjustments to the Choreography PCS mark



It's OK to have no theme or story though ;)

I think that this rule is as rubbish as the "uplifting" rule.

What does "clearly understandable to the audience" mean anyway? Understandable to some of the audience? Or a majority of the audience? And which audience? I'm sure a program like V/M's "Funny Face" is much more "clearly understandable" to an American audience than, say, a Chinese one. Actually, I, a Canadian, did not "clearly understand" V/M's "Funny Face" until I actually watched the movie myself recently. Would V/M still get a deduction in that case?
 

mikeko666

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Figure skating is hopelessly conservative, and has been recycling same ideas over and over and over for decades. The judges have no intelligent imagination and need to be told the story before actually watching the performance. They don't value originality and creativity. That makes figure skating really boring to general public. Many people don't take figure skating seriously as a sport, and I really doubt they take it seriously as art either. Watch Blades of Glory. No wonder figure skating hasn't been able to attract new fans. Suzuki's O is suffering in the same way Takahashi's Blues for Klook did.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
It's definitely a rubbish rule, since it is a deduction taken by an individual judge in a single PCS component score, rather than an overall penalty.

And any judge can defend taking this deduction with, "Well I didn't understand it..."
Nonetheless, it exists.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Doris, are you sure that the ISU actually enacted this? As I wrote earlier, I don't see such a rule in communication 1738. The references to rule 610 in that communication appear to be related only to having a required change of tempo and/or expression in the FD - "this change may be gradual or immediate, but in either case it must be obvious" (p. 4). That does not mean that the concept of the program must be obvious, and indeed, the word "story" does not appear anywhere in the communication. Is there another part to the rule that appears elsewhere and covers the conceptual side of things?
 
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npavel

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
If Caro can her hit 3T+3T and 3Lo, 2A in SP. Her content is still 2 points less than Kim, and given higher +GOE average base on harder element, Kim will still out score in GOE too. Their PCS will be within one point.

For LP, when was the last time Caro hit a clean 6 triples program, let alone 7?? Its been years. She is still likely to popped and stepout and messy landing as much as other skaters.
This years Italian Nationals,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5RDSv7NAZM
last year Challenge Cup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbFWbiEGO5Q
came in my mind.
In the SP, Yesterday she skated a clean SP and got 72,81 pts at Challenge Cup
 

Kunstrijdster

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Doris, are you sure that the ISU actually enacted this? As I wrote earlier, I don't see such a rule in communication 1738. The references to rule 610 in that communication appear to be related only to having a required change of tempo and/or expression in the FD - "this change may be gradual or immediate, but in either case it must be obvious" (p. 4). That does not mean that the concept of the program must be obvious, and indeed, the word "story" does not appear anywhere in the communication. Is there another part to the rule that appears elsewhere and covers the conceptual side of things?

It seems to appear in ISU communication 1677

It's really one of those ISU rules...:unsure:
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Can you point me to the place in the PCS overview where it says "all programs must have an easy to understand concept"? It's exactly this kind of approach that gets us all these Carmens and Swan Lakes - oh noes, if the music's not familiar it'll be too difficult for people to understand. :rolleye:

I've stayed out of this thread, as I don't want to criticize Ashley Wagner, a skater I admire, just because I like Akiko Suzuki better. But I think Akiko has challenged herself far more than Ashley has in terms of expanding her range as a performer and choosing diverse pieces of music and program concepts. Yes, it's easier for the audience to understand that Ashley was the Black Swan; it was made so obvious in the program that it would be hard not to. Some of Akiko's programs are more subtle and less obvious, but this does not make them lacking artistically (I liked Morozombie's take on her O program from this season). Where you got juniorish, I have no idea; you could say that about Mao's SP this season, maybe, but Akiko's? Of all the critiques that can be made about her, and there certainly are some, that one shouldn't even be on the list.

Both Wagner and Suzuki are wonderfully committed to their programs and choreo; for me, it comes across as more genuine in Suzuki's case, but I like seeing that kind of enthusiasm in any skater. I respect both ladies for sticking it out in the sport despite challenges and disappointing results along the way. Suzuki is still dealing with the challenge of not being her country's #1 skater, which certainly doesn't help her scores. She has been an underrated skater for years.

To suggest that Gracie Gold has a more polished look than Akiko Suzuki is laughable. Gold is a promising young skater, but she still has a way to go when it comes to presentation, polish, sophistication etc. She shouldn't even be part of this discussion. Maybe a few years down the line she'll be where Suzuki and Wagner are today.

Well of course Suzuki has more sophistication polish and presentation then Gracie. She has a decade on her in age. I doubt Suzuki at 17 was where Gracie is right now.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Well of course Suzuki has more sophistication polish and presentation then Gracie. She has a decade on her in age. I doubt Suzuki at 17 was where Gracie is right now.
Isn't that what I said? My post was a response to another poster who referred to Suzuki as juniorish and argued that she lacks Gold's polish.

Suzuki was a successful junior skater who suffered from an eating disorder in her late teens; consequently, she was off the ice for some time, making the age-matched comparison kind of irrelevant (also, her early career was under 6.0).

ETA: but if you're curious, here's 16 year old Suzuki at the 2001 Nagano JGP (which she won) and at 2002 4CC (where she was 8th).
 
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