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Thread: Wagner vs. Suzuki

  1. #46
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    It's like Gracie Gold with a bit better choreography/skating skills, but worse jumps.
    I agreed with a few of your points but I think that last sentence just gave me a stroke...
    Last edited by kwanatic; 02-20-2013 at 03:18 PM.

  2. #47
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    Although I prefer Akiko over Ashley as a skater and a performer, there seems so to be several reasons why she gets continually low-balled on PCS. Her body movements sometimes look awkward (on the contrary, I think Yuna and Mao know how to look natural and effortless every time they're competing), she is less superficially stylish and elegant than a lot of skaters, her relative lack of transitions and finally the federation support because she is her country's number 2 skater behind Mao Asada.

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    Re: Wagner vs. Suzuki

    Quote Originally Posted by christinaskater View Post
    Akiko is one of the best artist and dancers in the sport. She may not have the full biellmann extensions to her spins, but her spins are very good and gets level 4's.

    I appreciate an artist / musical skater taking risk by skating to music without a "mainstream" story and bringing the people through her journey of emotions through the song.

    I don't think Akiko is a "messy" skater. I dislike one position in her camel spin but the rest of her program is beautiful!
    Yet you still can't tell me what km watching when she performs her programs.

    To the poster below you, that's fine. Gracie's program suffers the same as Suzuki's. I have no idea what it's about. She just has better transitions and a bit better choreography. However Gold has a more polished look on the ice.

    Form does matter, even in skating.

    Also I didn't say anything about a Biellman spin. You don't need to be a contortionist to be polished. Look at Michelle Kwan.

  4. #49
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    I still have no clue what Akiko's program is about, and TBH it seems a bit junior'ish. I like her rather youthful energy and her smile (so few ladies genuinely smile), but really I'm lost as to what the program is about. Really Ashley's programs are clearly superior to Akiko's in terms of performance quality, relatability, and choreography.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    Yet you still can't tell me what km watching when she performs her programs.

    To the poster below you, that's fine. Gracie's program suffers the same as Suzuki's. I have no idea what it's about. She just has better transitions and a bit better choreography. However Gold has a more polished look on the ice.
    Can you point me to the place in the [URL="http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf"]PCS overview[/URL] where it says "all programs must have an easy to understand concept"? It's exactly this kind of approach that gets us all these Carmens and Swan Lakes - oh noes, if the music's not familiar it'll be too difficult for people to understand.

    I've stayed out of this thread, as I don't want to criticize Ashley Wagner, a skater I admire, just because I like Akiko Suzuki better. But I think Akiko has challenged herself far more than Ashley has in terms of expanding her range as a performer and choosing diverse pieces of music and program concepts. Yes, it's easier for the audience to understand that Ashley was the Black Swan; it was made so obvious in the program that it would be hard not to. Some of Akiko's programs are more subtle and less obvious, but this does not make them lacking artistically (I liked [URL="http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2013/02/akiko-suzuki-o.html"]Morozombie's take[/URL] on her O program from this season). Where you got juniorish, I have no idea; you could say that about Mao's SP this season, maybe, but Akiko's? Of all the critiques that can be made about her, and there certainly are some, that one shouldn't even be on the list.

    Both Wagner and Suzuki are wonderfully committed to their programs and choreo; for me, it comes across as more genuine in Suzuki's case, but I like seeing that kind of enthusiasm in any skater. I respect both ladies for sticking it out in the sport despite challenges and disappointing results along the way. Suzuki is still dealing with the challenge of not being her country's #1 skater, which certainly doesn't help her scores. She has been an underrated skater for years.

    To suggest that Gracie Gold has a more polished look than Akiko Suzuki is laughable. Gold is a promising young skater, but she still has a way to go when it comes to presentation, polish, sophistication etc. She shouldn't even be part of this discussion. Maybe a few years down the line she'll be where Suzuki and Wagner are today.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post


    I still have no clue what Akiko's program is about, and TBH it seems a bit junior'ish. I like her rather youthful energy and her smile (so few ladies genuinely smile), but really I'm lost as to what the program is about. Really Ashley's programs are clearly superior to Akiko's in terms of performance quality, relatability, and choreography. I hear people say she's a real performer... What exactly is she performing. I hear something about a peacock. What is she, what's going on in the program. We get that from Ashley's program, and Mao Asada's. I'm totally lost with Akiko. It's like Gracie Gold with a bit better choreography/skating skills, but worse jumps.

    Skating Skills they're about equal, Ashley has better transitions, Ashley executes things better than Akiko (better extension, etc.). Ashley seems to be more of a balanced skater, which is why she's able to do these things in and out of jumps and jump with less telegraphing compared to Akiko. Akiko is faster.

    What, exactly, is Ashley's LP about? Is she supposed to be Delilah? If so, what's she doing? Seducing Samson? Taunting him? Or getting crushed by a falling temple? In a way, Ashley's program is just as abstract as Akiko's. The difference is that Ashley is using much more familiar music, which *tells* us what the program is about even before Ashley starts skating.

    Also, I completely disagree that Ashley and Akiko are equal in skating skills. Akiko's flow, speed, edge control, knee action >>>> Ashley's. I've seen Akiko live and she is just so fast and smooth over the ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Can you point me to the place in the [URL="http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf"]PCS overview[/URL] where it says "all programs must have an easy to understand concept"? It's exactly this kind of approach that gets us all these Carmens and Swan Lakes - oh noes, if the music's not familiar it'll be too difficult for people to understand.
    ITA. "Relatability" is not in the criteria for PCS and I hope it will never be.
    Last edited by evangeline; 02-22-2013 at 02:05 AM.

  6. #51
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Um..It's already in the ice dance rules.

    Rule 610, communication 1738; Adjustments to the Choreography PCS mark

    IF THERE IS A STORY OR THEME IN THE PROGRAM AND IT IS NOT CLEARLY UNDERSTANDABLE TO THE AUDIENCE: - 1.0 TO - 2.0
    It's OK to have no theme or story though

  7. #52
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Um..It's already in the ice dance rules.

    Rule 610, communication 1738; Adjustments to the Choreography PCS mark

    It's OK to have no theme or story though
    I don't think there's a contradiction between this and my earlier post. There are many programs, in ice dance and in the other disciplines, that are just about skating to the music with no real concept; and neither Suzuki nor Wagner is competing in ice dance :D

    BTW, are you sure it's in communication 1738? I couldn't find it there. Certainly it isn't something that is highlighted by the ISU via their main site (though that's not saying much).

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Um..It's already in the ice dance rules.

    Rule 610, communication 1738; Adjustments to the Choreography PCS mark



    It's OK to have no theme or story though
    I think that this rule is as rubbish as the "uplifting" rule.

    What does "clearly understandable to the audience" mean anyway? Understandable to some of the audience? Or a majority of the audience? And which audience? I'm sure a program like V/M's "Funny Face" is much more "clearly understandable" to an American audience than, say, a Chinese one. Actually, I, a Canadian, did not "clearly understand" V/M's "Funny Face" until I actually watched the movie myself recently. Would V/M still get a deduction in that case?

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    Figure skating is hopelessly conservative, and has been recycling same ideas over and over and over for decades. The judges have no intelligent imagination and need to be told the story before actually watching the performance. They don't value originality and creativity. That makes figure skating really boring to general public. Many people don't take figure skating seriously as a sport, and I really doubt they take it seriously as art either. Watch Blades of Glory. No wonder figure skating hasn't been able to attract new fans. Suzuki's O is suffering in the same way Takahashi's Blues for Klook did.
    Last edited by mikeko666; 02-22-2013 at 08:04 AM.

  10. #55
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It's definitely a rubbish rule, since it is a deduction taken by an individual judge in a single PCS component score, rather than an overall penalty.

    And any judge can defend taking this deduction with, "Well I didn't understand it..."
    Nonetheless, it exists.

  11. #56
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Doris, are you sure that the ISU actually enacted this? As I wrote earlier, I don't see such a rule in communication 1738. The references to rule 610 in [URL="http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3566"]that communication[/URL] appear to be related only to having a required change of tempo and/or expression in the FD - "this change may be gradual or immediate, but in either case it must be obvious" (p. 4). That does not mean that the concept of the program must be obvious, and indeed, the word "story" does not appear anywhere in the communication. Is there another part to the rule that appears elsewhere and covers the conceptual side of things?
    Last edited by Buttercup; 02-22-2013 at 06:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    If Caro can her hit 3T+3T and 3Lo, 2A in SP. Her content is still 2 points less than Kim, and given higher +GOE average base on harder element, Kim will still out score in GOE too. Their PCS will be within one point.

    For LP, when was the last time Caro hit a clean 6 triples program, let alone 7?? Its been years. She is still likely to popped and stepout and messy landing as much as other skaters.
    This years Italian Nationals,
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5RDSv7NAZM[/url]
    last year Challenge Cup
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbFWbiEGO5Q[/url]
    came in my mind.
    In the SP, Yesterday she skated a clean SP and got 72,81 pts at Challenge Cup

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Doris, are you sure that the ISU actually enacted this? As I wrote earlier, I don't see such a rule in communication 1738. The references to rule 610 in [URL="http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3566"]that communication[/URL] appear to be related only to having a required change of tempo and/or expression in the FD - "this change may be gradual or immediate, but in either case it must be obvious" (p. 4). That does not mean that the concept of the program must be obvious, and indeed, the word "story" does not appear anywhere in the communication. Is there another part to the rule that appears elsewhere and covers the conceptual side of things?
    It seems to appear in [URL="http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&v ed=0CDYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.isu.org%2Fvsite% 2Fvcontent%2Fcontent%2Ftransnews%2F0%2C10869%2C484 4-128610-19728-18886-313635-3572-4771-layout160-129918-news-item%2C00.html&ei=fmcnUf_PDYXOswaV_YHQDA&usg=AFQjC NGogkX4LWDYQF8JdDpnkaqwV3bh8w&bvm=bv.42768644,d.Ym s"]ISU communication 1677[/URL]

    It's really one of those ISU rules...

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Can you point me to the place in the [URL="http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf"]PCS overview[/URL] where it says "all programs must have an easy to understand concept"? It's exactly this kind of approach that gets us all these Carmens and Swan Lakes - oh noes, if the music's not familiar it'll be too difficult for people to understand.

    I've stayed out of this thread, as I don't want to criticize Ashley Wagner, a skater I admire, just because I like Akiko Suzuki better. But I think Akiko has challenged herself far more than Ashley has in terms of expanding her range as a performer and choosing diverse pieces of music and program concepts. Yes, it's easier for the audience to understand that Ashley was the Black Swan; it was made so obvious in the program that it would be hard not to. Some of Akiko's programs are more subtle and less obvious, but this does not make them lacking artistically (I liked [URL="http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2013/02/akiko-suzuki-o.html"]Morozombie's take[/URL] on her O program from this season). Where you got juniorish, I have no idea; you could say that about Mao's SP this season, maybe, but Akiko's? Of all the critiques that can be made about her, and there certainly are some, that one shouldn't even be on the list.

    Both Wagner and Suzuki are wonderfully committed to their programs and choreo; for me, it comes across as more genuine in Suzuki's case, but I like seeing that kind of enthusiasm in any skater. I respect both ladies for sticking it out in the sport despite challenges and disappointing results along the way. Suzuki is still dealing with the challenge of not being her country's #1 skater, which certainly doesn't help her scores. She has been an underrated skater for years.

    To suggest that Gracie Gold has a more polished look than Akiko Suzuki is laughable. Gold is a promising young skater, but she still has a way to go when it comes to presentation, polish, sophistication etc. She shouldn't even be part of this discussion. Maybe a few years down the line she'll be where Suzuki and Wagner are today.
    Well of course Suzuki has more sophistication polish and presentation then Gracie. She has a decade on her in age. I doubt Suzuki at 17 was where Gracie is right now.

  15. #60
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Well of course Suzuki has more sophistication polish and presentation then Gracie. She has a decade on her in age. I doubt Suzuki at 17 was where Gracie is right now.
    Isn't that what I said? My post was a response to another poster who referred to Suzuki as juniorish and argued that she lacks Gold's polish.

    Suzuki was a successful junior skater who [URL="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iSxIh2Lqb7T9LAzf6ckerQXHkJ6Q"]suffered from an eating disorder in her late teens[/URL]; consequently, she was off the ice for some time, making the age-matched comparison kind of irrelevant (also, her early career was under 6.0).

    ETA: but if you're curious, here's 16 year old Suzuki at the [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFrGOjAVZbU"]2001 Nagano JGP[/URL] (which she won) and [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfalEVWEpfo"]at 2002 4CC[/URL] (where she was 8th).
    Last edited by Buttercup; 02-22-2013 at 08:12 AM.

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