Time for New US World Selection System?

[eyria]

Even if Farris is close to Miner, Dornbush, and Rippon in international PCS, that PCS is from junior competitions. Which is not the same as senior. I really liked Joshua's skating at Nationals, but I didn't have a problem with him receiving lower PCS than Ross. To me, Ross skates with a lot more speed, maturity, and presence than Farris. I thought Farris's LP was good but he looked a bit nervous throughout, and he seemed to be dropping his shoulders or something, his posture was just a bit lacking. Also his program was generic, whereas I like the concept and presentation of Ross's program, and you have to admit Ross really kept it moving and maintained great energy throughout. Did Ross get a bit of a reputation boost in PCS? I would say yes. But I'd also say he still deserved to come ahead of Farris.

To me it's not in doubt that Max and Ross had the 2 best overall performances at Nationals, and therefore deserved their spots on the team according to current criteria. I just hope Ross can pull it together and do better at Worlds. 4CC was definitely a pretty big disappointment for him, and I worry that he's now developing a mental block with his triple Axels.

All I can say about the PCS issue on the ladies' side is I disagreed thoroughly with many of the marks at Nationals. I do understand Gracie's PCS boost in the long. However, I very much disagreed with the disparity in Agnes's and Christina's PCS.

[Mrs. P]

No, it didn't disrupt the program, so it should not have lowered his component scores, or if it did, not enough to make an overall effect...

Silverlake, you have your favorites and are crying foul for them like a good fan, but I'd like to SEE the proof (and everyone else's who is crying foul) that people were held up/down. Especially on the Men's side, I don't have a horse in the race (yet, as the horse I have chosen is still working on some things technically to be in that top group) and can be more objective. This is how I saw it:

1) I don't see that USFS felt Max Aaron was "the man" because he has the most consistent quads and "had" to make the World team. His quads have been consistent for awhile (at least since last season) and he didn't even get a host pick for SKAM much less any love to get a GP event via politicking elsewhere. I believe in his case, the judges called it like they saw it (he was the best overall at Nationals). Ross Miner has very strong skating skills, transitions, and choreography. He had one mistake (popped Axel) that he was dinged for on the TES side (7.4 points differential) but it didn't affect the balance of the performance nor was it totally disruptive and jarring (like a zamboni-fall would have been). Miner is ahead of Farris at this time in their careers on PCS because his edgework is stronger and ability to generate power is better. While he might not be everyone's cup of tea style-wise, he does have wonderful bi-directional skating, power, and edge quality and it is currently superior to every other competitive American man not named Jeremy Abbott as this was an area the Miner focused on coming through the ranks. Farris was also scored behind Abbott at Nationals when Abbott did not skate well on the technical side and while I think a case could have been made for Farris to be 3rd on the strength of his TES, the judges in the arena felt differently. I am sure live in the arena there is an utter reason why Farris is quite a few points behind Miner on the PCS side that you aren't picking up from TV.

I wish Ross would get more love! So I will give some

Seriously though, mskater93, I totally agree with you. It seems that no matter what Ross does many people still see him as some sort of second-tier skater. Ross still has the highest SB among all the U.S. men even with Max's solid performance at 4CC.

Ross, I think its underestimated because he's subtle in his program -- though he has made great strides to have better choreography that show a little more power and bravado.

I think Farris had a solid effort, but even compared to a mistake-ridden Jeremy, he still has work to do. Jeremy, even as he messed up, still was very much committed to doing the choreography to that program. I agreed that Farris seemed nervous. The good news is he's young so he has plenty of time to develop his performance abilits/ PCS.

As for Max, I see no indication either that U.S. wanted him to be on the World team or even some sort of desire for him to be U.S. champion (a la Ryan Bradley). I really think that Max had a great skate. Ross didn't lose to him by much -- if he did the 3A, he would've been national champion instead.

[mskater93]

For example, internationally Gao and Gold are pretty even on PCS and Zawadzki a bit lower, so at Nationals, Gold is a bit higher for the reason you explained okay

I'd expect if Gold had skater closer to her Nationals skate than her SC skate at 4C, her PCS would have been closer to her Nationals skate. Gao skated near her absolute best at 4C technically, Gold near her worst, and their PCS was about the same.

Miner, as I said in my first post, has the best SS and edge quality of any American not named Jeremy Abbott right now. He's got a smoothness to his blade-to-ice skills that Aaron, Farris, and Dornbush can aspire to have at this point, but don't quite reach. He's "quiet" on his blades similar to how Kwan was "quiet" on her blades. Farris gets high PCS marks internationally as a Junior, but if Lipnitskaia's marks between last season and this are any indication (and Tuktamysheva's before her), they'd drop somewhat in the Senior ranks because being considered a top skater boosts your marks (self-fullfilling prophecy) a little - a case of the rich getting richer.

There's something about Zawadski's skating that American judges seem to like and reward. That I cannot answer...0

[silverlake22]

Even if Farris is close to Miner, Dornbush, and Rippon in international PCS, that PCS is from junior competitions. Which is not the same as senior.

Which iterates the point even more. Both Kovtun and Han Yan got higher PCS at senior internationals compared to junior international events, and at Europeans, Kovtun skated similarly to how he did at the JGPF, and Yan at 4CCs skated similarly to how he did at JGP Croatia, and yet in the FS the PCS were still a fair margin (I'm talking in the vicinity of 3-5 points) higher at the senior events compared to the junior events. And the Eurosport commentators, both for Kovtun at Euros and Yan at 4CCs, talked about how neither skater really had much presentation and performance ability in the FS and were still very much "junior" in that respect. But the PCS was 72 and 75 vs the 68-71 they (and Farris) usually get at junior international events so there is a noticeable bump.

For his clean FS at NHK Ross's PCS in the FS was 75, when he made mistakes in the program they go lower (70 at SC, 72 at 4CC). Josh for good skates at JW and JGP Lake Placid got 71 for PCS, 70 in Slovenia where he had some mistakes, and 68 at JGPF where he was doped up on Benadryl and made multiple errors. So if you apply the trend of adding 3-5 points to FS PCS from junior to senior events seen from Yan and Kovtun, that would put Josh's senior PCS range at around 71-76 which is almost exactly equal to Miner.

I know this is all hypothetical and doesn't mean anything but I still stand by my feeling that Miner did not deserve the 7 point PCS margin he had over Farris in the FS nor did Zawadzki deserve the 3 point PCS margin she had over Gao in the FS when she made more mistakes and Christina was basically clean. Nan Song had higher PCS than Han Yan at Chinese Nationals too, then at 4CC that didn't happen.

I take less of an issue with Jeremy beating Josh and Ashley beating Christina even though they made bigger errors because in both those cases, I DO think the former are considerably stronger artistically/PCS wise than the latter and have a bit of a mistake buffer from PCS and this viewpoint is supported by PCS marks these skaters receive internationally, however the same can not be said for Gao vs. Zawadzki and Miner vs. Farris so in my mind it's like, Gao and Zawadkzi are pretty much equal but Gao's a lot more consistent, and Farris and Miner are pretty much equal but Farris is 4 years younger and has more time & potential to get even better. So that's just my 2 cents.

[Mrs. P]

Which iterates the point even more. Both Kovtun and Han Yan got higher PCS at senior internationals compared to junior international events, and at Europeans, Kovtun skated similarly to how he did at the JGPF, and Yan at 4CCs skated similarly to how he did at JGP Croatia, and yet in the FS the PCS were still a fair margin (I'm talking in the vicinity of 3-5 points) higher at the senior events compared to the junior events. And the Eurosport commentators, both for Kovtun at Euros and Yan at 4CCs, talked about how neither skater really had much presentation and performance ability in the FS and were still very much "junior" in that respect. But the PCS was 72 and 75 vs the 68-71 they (and Farris) usually get at junior international events so there is a noticeable bump.

For his clean FS at NHK Ross's PCS in the FS was 75, when he made mistakes in the program they go lower (70 at SC, 72 at 4CC). Josh for good skates at JW and JGP Lake Placid got 71 for PCS, 70 in Slovenia where he had some mistakes, and 68 at JGPF where he was doped up on Benadryl and made multiple errors. So if you apply the trend of adding 3-5 points to FS PCS from junior to senior events seen from Yan and Kovtun, that would put Josh's senior PCS range at around 71-76 which is almost exactly equal to Miner.

I know this is all hypothetical and doesn't mean anything but I still stand by my feeling that Miner did not deserve the 7 point PCS margin he had over Farris in the FS nor did Zawadzki deserve the 3 point PCS margin she had over Gao in the FS when she made more mistakes and Christina was basically clean. Nan Song had higher PCS than Han Yan at Chinese Nationals too, then at 4CC that didn't happen.

I take less of an issue with Jeremy beating Josh and Ashley beating Christina even though they made bigger errors because in both those cases, I DO think the former are considerably stronger artistically/PCS wise than the latter and have a bit of a mistake buffer from PCS and this viewpoint is supported by PCS marks these skaters receive internationally, however the same can not be said for Gao vs. Zawadzki and Miner vs. Farris so in my mind it's like, Gao and Zawadkzi are pretty much equal but Gao's a lot more consistent, and Farris and Miner are pretty much equal but Farris is 4 years younger and has more time & potential to get even better. So that's just my 2 cents.

Um...considering that Josh has yet to compete at a senior international event, don't you think you are jumping the gun a bit on what he would receive in PCS? Also the whole "can't compare across competitions" principle applies.

Compared to Josh AT THIS particular competition, I agree that Ross deserved the 7 point margin. The judges do not score on "well so-and-so got this at this event, so therefore I should score this skater this way here" they score based on what they see and how that person does compared to the other skaters at THAT competition. The error in the 3A, as mskater93 pointed out, did not interrupt the program and in fact, besides that mistake, I think it was just as a good, from a performance standpoint, as his FS in NHK. Josh on the other hand, seemed nervous and while he was mostly clean (minus the fall on the quad) I don't think he skated that as well as he could.

[Mathman]

Again, this says a lot more about fan paranoia than about the system itself. There's nowhere in the rules that details the difference between 6.25 and 6.75, any more than there was a rule about when to give 5.6 vs. 5.7 under the old system.

In my opinion, the psychology is completely different. If a judge gives one skater a 5.6 and another a 5.7, this means that the judge thought the second skater was a little bit better than the first. If the next skater gets a 5.8, this means that the judges thought the third skater was the best of the three.

I might have a different opinion, but it's a judged sport. If you want to be measured instead of judged, go downhill on skis.

The CoP purports to substitute measuring for judging, in so far as possible. We take out our protractors. Is the jump 70 degrees short or 110? Intellectually, I understand that there are many variables that affect the precision of the measurement. Still, psychologically, if you measure something and tell me it's two feet long and I am standing right there beside you holding my yard stick in my hand -- three feet -- I can't help but feel perplexed.

The same is true (somewhat) of the program components (again, speaking from the point of view of fan psychology). For the second mark, I thought Brian Orser's performance was more artistically satisfying than Brian Boitano's. If you think otherwise, OK. If you are an expert judge then you can see little details that escape my eye. So be it -- you're the expert judge, I'm not.

But the program components for the IJS are broken down into many categories, subcategories, and bulleted criteria, that, if not precisely quantifiable, at least are specific enough that it seems like they should not admit a wide difference of opinion in their scoring. That being the case, what should I conclude if my evaluation of a skater's choreography is different from the judges'? The two possibilities are: (a) I am a dummy who doesn't know jack about skating. Or (b) there is something fishy going on among the judging panel.

Neither of these is a happy thought.

[silverlake22]

Um...considering that Josh has yet to compete at a senior international event, don't you think you are jumping the gun a bit on what he would receive in PCS? Also the whole "can't compare across competitions" principle applies.

Compared to Josh AT THIS particular competition, I agree that Ross deserved the 7 point margin. The judges do not score on "well so-and-so got this at this event, so therefore I should score this skater this way here" they score based on what they see and how that person does compared to the other skaters at THAT competition. The error in the 3A, as mskater93 pointed out, did not interrupt the program and in fact, besides that mistake, I think it was just as a good, from a performance standpoint, as his FS in NHK. Josh on the other hand, seemed nervous and while he was mostly clean (minus the fall on the quad) I don't think he skated that as well as he could.

I wasn't trying to jump to conclusions, just when someone said the PCS at junior events tends to be higher than at senior events, I disagreed and gave an example with Yan and Kovtun on why I believed this was the case. And Lipnitskaya when she won JW last season had PCS of 56 for her crystal clean FS compared to 57 at both CoC and TEB this season where she did not skate nearly as well. Sotnikova skating just okay at SA got PCS of 59 in her FS and even her meltdown at COR earned her 55 in PCS for the FS compared to the 53 she received at JW last year where she had a pretty solid skate. So in generally, for skaters who are highly regarded as juniors internationally, their PCS at junior international events will generally be a few points lower than at senior international events for a comparable skate. Denis Ten is another example...67 in PCS for his FS at JW then a couple weeks later 74 in PCS for his FS at Worlds that was only slightly better technically. I said it was all hypothetical, but usually the trend is what I have described.

Anyways at Nationals I sort of had the opposite impression in the FS, I thought Josh skated out of his skin, better than I have ever seen before honestly, and thought his jumps were exceptionally nice on that night and the nerves didn't show through so much, whereas Ross was visibly fighting for most of his elements and did not have ideal landings on a few of them. In the SP Josh seemed a little slow and nervous and I could have understood a slightly lower score, but in the FS he was fabulous. And this isn't just about Josh either, Ross also had 7-8 points in PCS over Rippon and Dornbush at Nationals. Ricky made some costly mistakes but still presented the program well and Adam didn't make any major mistakes in routine which he really got into character for and did quite a good job selling. The issue is, looking at the protocols from Nationals, the judges have Jeremy 4 points ahead of Ross, which is fine, but then from Ross to a the next step of Aaron, Farris, Dornbush, Rippon, Johnson, and Brown is 5-8 points, which is what I have issue with. It's saying that PCS wise, Ross is closer to Jeremy than the likes of Dornbush, Farris, Rippon, Johnson, "on" Aaron, and Brown. A slight edge to Miner given how he skated compared to some of the other guys I maybe say is okay, but he should still be closer to the other guys than to Jeremy, and internationally, he's part of that big group anyways.

It's the same deal with Christina, the SP was not great, she had to fight for those jumps and the fall on the spin was a bit jarring, the marks were fair and I could have understood a little lower even, but her FS was clean, elegant, and to me she really performed, maybe it wasn't the same kind of "wow" moment Gracie had but she was more connected to her program than Gracie was and Agnes with mistakes got the same PCS as Gracie in the FS so comparatively I think Gao deserved a 61 at least instead of a 58 considering both Gracie and Agnes got 61s and Gao did have a clean skate and managed not to go on auto-pilot in order to land all her jumps.

[Mrs. P]

I wasn't trying to jump to conclusions, just when someone said the PCS at junior events tends to be higher than at senior events, I disagreed and gave an example with Yan and Kovtun on why I believed this was the case. And Lipnitskaya when she won JW last season had PCS of 56 for her crystal clean FS compared to 57 at both CoC and TEB this season where she did not skate nearly as well. Sotnikova skating just okay at SA got PCS of 59 in her FS and even her meltdown at COR earned her 55 in PCS for the FS compared to the 53 she received at JW last year where she had a pretty solid skate. So in generally, for skaters who are highly regarded as juniors internationally, their PCS at junior international events will generally be a few points lower than at senior international events for a comparable skate. Denis Ten is another example...67 in PCS for his FS at JW then a couple weeks later 74 in PCS for his FS at Worlds that was only slightly better technically. I said it was all hypothetical, but usually the trend is what I have described.

Anyways at Nationals I sort of had the opposite impression in the FS, I thought Josh skated out of his skin, better than I have ever seen before honestly, and thought his jumps were exceptionally nice on that night and the nerves didn't show through so much, whereas Ross was visibly fighting for most of his elements and did not have ideal landings on a few of them. In the SP Josh seemed a little slow and nervous and I could have understood a slightly lower score, but in the FS he was fabulous. It's the same with Christina, the SP was not great, she had to fight for those jumps and the fall on the spin was a bit jarring, the marks were fair and I could have understood a little lower even, but her FS was clean, elegant, and to me she really performed, maybe it wasn't the same kind of "wow" moment Gracie had but she was more connected to her program than Gracie was and Agnes with mistakes got the same PCS as Gracie in the FS so comparatively I think Gao deserved a 61 at least instead of a 58 considering both Gracie and Agnes got 61s.

Different viewpoints, I suppose. I thought Ross did great and basically besides the 3A, it was a solid effort. I still maintain that Josh has done that FS way better and he did seem a bit tentative.

I do agree that Christina was undermarked in PCS and more agree that Agnes was over marked.

[silverlake22]

Different viewpoints, I suppose. I thought Ross did great and basically besides the 3A, it was a solid effort. I still maintain that Josh has done that FS way better and he did seem a bit tentative.

I do agree that Christina was undermarked in PCS and more agree that Agnes was over marked.

I edited my post to make the point that it's not really just about Josh anyways, that Ross was also placed in a category by himself where his PCS were significantly higher than Farris, Dornbush, Rippon, lights-out Aaron, lights-out Johnson, and Brown and closer to Jeremy Abbott's numbers than the guys I just mentioned. Given that it wasn't a perfect skate deserving a PCS bump for being so awesome, that's what I don't agree with. I can see an argument that Ross is maybe a slight step up from Dornbush/Rippon/Farris/etc. given how they have usually skated this season, but he's still closer to those guys (and internationally, really one of that group) than Abbott from a PCS standpoint.

I guess my deal is, I think Ross should be on a tier that includes Dornbush, Farris, Aaron, and Rippon and Brown if they can add the quads to their arsenals, and I think Gold and Zawadzki should be on a tier that includes Gao. However, at Nationals it would appear that Ross is on a tier by himself above the guys I mentioned and below Abbott while Gold and Zawadzki are on a tier by themselves (along with maybe Nagasu when she rotates her jumps) that's below Ashley but above Gao, who gets grouped with Hicks, Siraj, Cesario, Wang, and Miller (and Nagasu when she gets dinged for URs), which I don't agree with.

[Mrs. P]

I edited my post to make the point that it's not really just about Josh anyways, that Ross was also placed in a category by himself where his PCS were significantly higher than Farris, Dornbush, Rippon, lights-out Aaron, lights-out Johnson, and Brown and closer to Jeremy Abbott's numbers than the guys I just mentioned. Given that it wasn't a perfect skate deserving a PCS bump for being so awesome, that's what I don't agree with. It's arguable that Ross IS a step up from Dornbush/Rippon/Farris/etc. given how they a;; usually skate this season, but he's still closer to those guys (and internationally, really one of that group) than Abbott from a PCS standpoint.

The only error Ross made was the 3A, which I and many others pointed out was not a huge interruption to the program. It DID hurt is TES score, as it should have. But the program was great otherwise.

Wait did you just say that Ross should have had a lower PCS margin than, of all people, Max Aaron?!

Again, the point I made still applies -- U.S. Nationals are going to be scored differently because of the level of competition. Ross Miner is unlikely to score 84 and some change internationally. That is a given. However, I can see how a judge at U.S. Nationals would consider that Ross deserved higher PCS relative to the competition.. So if for whatever reason Ross stands out there, they are going to score accordingly.

Again, that's why you can't compare scores across competitions and why Nationals scores don't count toward ISU personal bests/season's bests.

[gkelly]

Well, Mathman, skating is complex and the scoring is analytical -- under 6.0 judges could come up with their marks holistically, but only after years of immersion in the technique and rules of the sport.

US TV networks have historically presented skating in terms of the emotional experience. Which is a great way to enjoy figure skating, but not a great way to understand the results.

There's no ideal way to measure performances that are as multifaceted and qualitative as a skating program. I think it's important to distinguish between the quantitative aspects that can be measured -- but with current technology some areas can only be estimated by human eye -- and qualitative analog aspects that judges evaluate and translate onto a digital scale in a process that is necessarily subject to human psychology but more accurate with more knowledge.

I just wish there were better ways for TV commentary to respect the technical aspects of skating performances (aside from jump success) and the judging process and point interested fans toward resources for learning more and also to encourage viewers to enjoy the performances without suggesting that our enjoyment should line up in any way with the results.

There are a lot of gradations between "viewers are dummies" and "judges are acting fishy" to explain differences of opinion. But with network broadcast hours at such a premium, there isn't enough time to help intelligent viewers make more sophisticated evaluations of what's going on.

[silverlake22]

I meant a PERFECT Max Aaaron with 2 quads and 2 3a in the bonus of his FS should get PCS about the same as Ross because given that situation Max would benefit from the wowza effect PCS boost, otherwise Ross would be a few points ahead of Max on PCS. Anyways, I think i'm mostly just caught up on this because I want Dornbush and Farris to go to the Olympics next year and would be upset if Ross gets named to the team instead of one or both of those two on the basis of a PCS differential that does not exist internationally. That's it. If Ross skates better technically than those two or come next season is deservedly earning higher PCS internationally than Ricky and Josh then by all means he should be on the team. I just feel that some skaters are considered better in the mind of the USFS compared to internationally while others are considered virtually the same or even a little worse nationally versus internationally.

[Mrs. P]

I meant a PERFECT Max Aaaron with 2 quads and 2 3a in the bonus of his FS should get PCS about the same as Ross because given that situation Max would benefit from the wowza effect PCS boost, otherwise Ross would be a few points ahead of Max on PCS. Anyways, I think i'm mostly just caught up on this because I want Dornbush and Farris to go to the Olympics next year and would be upset if Ross gets named to the team instead of one or both of those two on the basis of a PCS differential that does not exist internationally. That's it. If Ross skates better technically than those two or come next season is deservedly earning higher PCS internationally than Ricky and Josh then by all means he should be on the team. I just feel that some skaters are considered better in the mind of the USFS compared to internationally while others are considered virtually the same or even a little worse nationally versus internationally.

But Max DID get a HUGE PCS boost. His PCS was 79, vs. 72 in the long program at 4CC.

8.07 7.25 8.39 7.96 8.07 Nationals FS
7.64 6.79 7.50 7.21 7.14 4CC FS

And let's not forget that Ross DID land a quad, while Josh didn't.

And as for Ross not being well-regarded internationally -- I think he's just taking the slower and more calculated route to gaining success. Not everybody is a Yuzuru Hanyu who gets high PCS within a few years. But I think his PCS has been growing slowly over the years. At Worlds 2011 -- his PCS was nearly 69, with the individual component scores in the high 6s and low 7s. Now we see he's in the mid 70s. And I think if he performs well at Worlds, he can get into the high 70s.

And as for USFS favoring Ross over Richard? That's funny. Richard has gotten more opportunities to shine ---did you forget that he got a 4CC assignment despite finishing 13th at Nationals? Or that he was sent to 4CC over Josh Farris?

ETA: On the subject matter at hand. No matter how you look at it, Ross deserved to be sent to Worlds. He had a solid outing on the GP, with a bronze out of a loaded field in Japan. And his only error was a popped 3A in the FS.

[mskater93]

I meant a PERFECT Max Aaaron with 2 quads and 2 3a in the bonus of his FS should get PCS about the same as Ross because given that situation Max would benefit from the wowza effect PCS boost, otherwise Ross would be a few points ahead of Max on PCS.

I completely DISAGREE with this statement. Max does deserve a boost for skating clean but Max needs to get away from TomZ for Max to score the same PCS as Ross as none of TomZ's long term students have shown marvelous skating skills and transitions other than Abbott and he had a different foundation than the rest. From a technical blade to ice standpoint (power, edgework, ease, flow) Miner is second overall in the US behind Abbott right now and there SHOULD be a differential between him and the next tier of Aaron, Dornbush, Rippon, and Farris right now unless he puts out a sloppy mess (which he didn't at Nationals at all).

Gold, too, has excellent speed, flow and ease on the ice. She is much faster than Gao which affects the SS mark and hence the balance of the marks when she is on. Nagasu was in the same PCS range as Gold and Zawadski (60 ish). Gao was on the next level at 58.

I still hold that in person, there is something the judges are seeing/not seeing or hearing in that skater (noisy skating, perhaps?) that you don't see on TV that is giving these impressions...

[Mrs. P]

I completely DISAGREE with this statement. Max does deserve a boost for skating clean but Max needs to get away from TomZ for Max to score the same PCS as Ross as none of TomZ's long term students have shown marvelous skating skills and transitions other than Abbott and he had a different foundation than the rest. From a technical blade to ice standpoint (power, edgework, ease, flow) Miner is second overall in the US behind Abbott right now and there SHOULD be a differential between him and the next tier of Aaron, Dornbush, Rippon, and Farris right now unless he puts out a sloppy mess (which he didn't at Nationals at all).

Gold, too, has excellent speed, flow and ease on the ice. She is much faster than Gao which affects the SS mark and hence the balance of the marks when she is on. Nagasu was in the same PCS range as Gold and Zawadski (60 ish). Gao was on the next level at 58.

I still hold that in person, there is something the judges are seeing/not seeing or hearing in that skater (noisy skating, perhaps?) that you don't see on TV that is giving these impressions...

I did see Gao in person at Skate America. While she has great musicality and I gave her a standing O for her FS, I could see she got lower PCS than Adelina and Ashley.

Adelina, even with her errors at that competition, SKATES BIG. She has great speed, flow and ease across the ice. We saw at Euros that when she gets it all together -- MAN!

Ashley had this presence, I don't know how to explain it. She skates big in a different way. And she has a lot of speed and skates with a lot of power.

Christina, while I think she did two solid programs, seemed a bit labored in how she skates. Not super labored, a la Caroline Zhang, but she needs a bit more power. Like Ross, she is a very subtle skater, but I don't think she has the skating skills Ross has to show power.

That said, I love Christina and think she has a lot to build on


ETA: Also, I think that Agnes does not get dumped internationally as much as she dumps herself. Consider the fact she scored 101+ for a VERY flawed program at 4CC with 2 clean triples. Her PCS was actually above Kaetlyn's who had a cleaner program. So it's really hard to say, as with Gracie, how Agnes fares internationally because she has never skated to her full potential in both segments of a competition. Agnes placement at Nationals the last two years has been on the strength of her SP, which has always been her strongest segment. She did finish 7th in the FS.