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Thread: Ice Dance judges

  1. #1
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Ice Dance judges

    I found and read this (http://figureskate.wordpress.com/201...ens-interview/) interview, and I found really interesting this part:
    PI: I only judge singles and pairs. No ice dance for me. I’m a REAL judge!
    TW: Which means?
    PI: That’s an inside joke in figure skating. In ice dance, everyone knows all the results before they even judge, yet they still sit through every practice session from five in the morning until late at night.
    TW: So who DOES determine the ice dance results, then?
    PI: The previous competitions and the country you’re from play a huge part. And I guess from time-to-time, the quality of skating matters. But that’s not my department..
    I've always thought this, and now t'is a lot more evident with the IJS: I think about V/M vs D/W, for example: in some competition, it seems that all the nine (or most of the) judges like (for example) V/M, in another D/W, and the same is for the technical panel; I sometimes feel the same about single skaters: for example, this year Carolina received harsh PCS marks from the whole Golden Spin panel of judges, when at Euros all the judges gave her really high marks...
    For example, last season it was clear that at Worlds the judges liked V/M (and D/W came second, even if both the couples skated their best, and I would say D/W were actually a bit better, at least in the FD), then at WTT they both skated almost the same as Worlds but D/W received super-higher marks.
    I have always thought that there is some kind of agreement among the judges before the competition, especially in Ice Dance...
    What do you think?

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    Interesting and disturbing. He certainly paints a rather, I suspect, glorified picture if his own judging abilities. Sonia's response is certainly difficult to read.
    I gave up this go round, but will come back and give it another go.
    Last edited by Icey; 02-14-2013 at 08:35 AM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Mr. Ibens feels that only ten percent of all figure skating judges are completely honest. He, a REAL judge, is among the ten per cent -- it's those OTHER crooks that are the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Mr. Ibens feels that only ten percent of all figure skating judges are completely honest. He, a REAL judge, is among the ten per cent -- it's those OTHER crooks that are the problem.
    I think that the "real" judge word means that he isn't an Ice Dance judge (and that's actually why I quoted that part), that only the singles and pairs judges are "real" judges (that's just his opinion, obviously...)

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    Whyyyyyyy.....one of the reasons that I'm not exactly in love with this sport.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is the follow-up interview, two years later. Ibens uses more measured language in his opinions about judges and the judging system.

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2012/1...et-around.html

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It's easier to ready Bianchetti's response if you select (and thus highlight) her letter. That turns the font from pale peach to blue

    I think we've discussed the 2010 interview before, but I haven't seen the followup.

    I still think this comment by Bianchetti is interesting:

    Besides, having the ISU decide that a judge is only allowed to arrive on the spot of the competition on the day before the event and has to leave the day after the event, makes the social appeal of the sport gone. I wonder how many judges will be willing to fly may be 12 or more hours, judge two days and fly back, without even being able to see the rest of the competition.
    In other words, it is better to have judges that are there for the skating and the parties than those who want to judge the particular event for some nefarious, and possibly corrupt, reasons of their own

  8. #8
    Rinkside
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    One only has to see how the qualifying TES was handed out to Ice Dancers from European countries this season to see the level of corruption which has raised it's ugly head in this discipline. Ice Dancers from countries where there was no deals made are not at world championships this year despite being top 20 last season.

    Who needs to party at competitions when you can walk away with a lovely gift for looking after the right couples!

    Attaining ice Dance qualifying TES at International B competitions has been a total fraud this season.

  9. #9
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Possum Glider...

    Id like to hear more specifics about your views on TES ...

    Exactly which Top 20 WC dance teams did not qualify this year?

    Which B competitions were fraudulent, in your opinion?

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    Rinkside
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    Ok slight error- 2 from top 25- O'Brien/Merriman Aus- 20th and NAGORNYUK/ KOVALENKO UZB- 25th
    The Chinese couple who came 12th last year isn't around now but no Chinese couples qualified

    The Judges aren't stupid enough to have one competition where everyone gets the mark but by reviewing European Championship Short Dance TES one can draw conclusions seeing the drop in the TES in the following couples-

    SVK TESTA, Federica / CSOLLEY, Lukas 31.17 Golden Spin 2012 Europeans SD- 23.64
    ESP HURTADO, Sara / DIAZ, Adria 33 IT Lyon 2013 Europeans SD- 25.64
    EST SHTORK, Irina / RAND, Taavi 31.66 Volvo 2013 Europeans SD- 24.2
    CZE MYSLIVECKOVA, Lucie / BROWN, Neil 30.80 IT Lyon 2013 Europeans SD- 26.20

    Most couples improve as the season go on the CZE couple was the least drop but any coach looking after a couple who drop 7.53 just in the TES needs to be examining their coaching techniques or thanking the judges for the free pass.

    It remains interesting that while accepting B international competition marks for qualifying marks they are not included on the list of PB's on the ISU Bio's.

  11. #11
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It is clearly a problem for Asian & North American skaters how few Senior B's exist outside Europe. The case of the Australians is particularly sad, because they are a much better team than when they placed twentieth at Worlds last year, and yet they will not make it this year, exactly because the best TES they got in a short dance was 28.50. In fact, a year when the World Champions, V&M, did not make the minimum at Skate Canada, and then you have Testa & Csolley getting those grades at Golden Spin is clearly a year with very, very inconsistent judging.

    The TES rules did, however, really improve the number of entries at all those little European Senior B's, though, and the attendance at those where Yu Na Kim and Plushenko (not in dance, of course) skated have to have been through the roof.

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    TES (which is all the minimum scores include) is mostly based on the calls by the tech panel, secondarily on the GOEs by the judging panel.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Absolutely true, if anyone wanted to cheat, the way to do it would be on the tech panel.

    For one thing, only 3 people are involved.

    For another, in some places, one person is mainly watching the man, and the other the lady. And most votes are majority rule. The easiest way to cheat (assuming any tech specialist is bribable, which is not at all a proven fact), is for the bribed person to assign level 4 to every skill they are judging for a couple they are to favor, as long as the flaws are not blatantly noticeable. The chances that the other 2 people will have noticed slight flaws is small, and the bribed person could always say he must have blinked when the flawed thing was done, if another notices it, and there is a review. Similarly, he would call step sequences one level lower for a team he was not favoring, thus triggering a review where really nit picky things can well be noticed, even if not visible in real time.

    I have never heard of the coach of a competitor formally questioning a tech call when it was too high for another couple, so that method would probably work fairly well.

    Fixing it with the judges requires more than 2 judges in your pocket; much harder to do, since the high and the low are thrown out, and judges are responsible to stay in a corridor of judging to avoid questions.

    Personally, I think there should be 5 members of a tech panel for either dance or pairs, so their are two pairs of eyes focussed on each member of a couple at all times. Yes, there is an expense, so it won't be done, but it should. And it would make it easier for tech callers to meet their qualificaitons, so there is a less tiny group of people to draw from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Absolutely true, if anyone wanted to cheat, the way to do it would be on the tech panel.
    Yes, for the reasons you describe.

    I have never heard of the coach of a competitor formally questioning a tech call when it was too high for another couple, so that method would probably work fairly well.
    They're not allowed to make official protests about someone else's scores. I think some might have complained publicly in the press -- I haven't been following ice dance closely enough to remember details -- but after the scores are finalized there's not much that can be done about past results.

    Assuming honest tech panels, public complaints might inspire the next panel to be more careful about scrutinizing whatever point the rival team's camp had raised. Of course, they might also be stricter in scrutinizing the rival team as well.

    Personally, I think there should be 5 members of a tech panel for either dance or pairs, so their are two pairs of eyes focussed on each member of a couple at all times. Yes, there is an expense, so it won't be done, but it should. And it would make it easier for tech callers to meet their qualificaitons, so there is a less tiny group of people to draw from.
    You mean, the process of qualifying technical specialists should be made easier so that there will be more people qualified?

    That would certainly make it easier for less important competitions to find qualified officials as well. But there would be more competition for the coveted championship assignments.

  15. #15
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Yes, it's not that easy to qualify tech specialists. And I would suspect that not having very many at the ISU level in the USA & Canada makes it harder to put together Senior B's in North America, I would think, because of transportation costs for whomever has to bear them, among other things?

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