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Thread: Ice Dance judges

  1. #16
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    The tech specialists are all former skaters (in whatever discipline they competed) - it is a requirement. The tech controller is an ISU judge. I don't know why a skater would not want to be accurate in making calls as many of them can probably relate to being on the wrong end of a bad call sometime in their career. And anyone can make an honest mistake, which hopefully is caught by the tech controller. I have a problem with using judges in high level competitions like Worlds that come from countries without a strong program especially in pairs and dance.

    As for all judges not being part of the "social scene" at major events anymore is mainly due to $$$$$. The ISU is not making the money it did years ago. It's a budgetary issue.

  2. #17
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    This is true. However, being a former skater does not automatically make you a good person.

    Or, for that matter, a bad one.

    Consider the unpleasant case of Wolfgang Schwarz, 1968 Olympic gold medalist:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Schwarz

  3. #18
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    I have a problem with using judges in high level competitions like Worlds that come from countries without a strong program especially in pairs and dance.
    On the other hand, such judges might be more impartial, having no rooster in the pit.

  4. #19
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    The important thing is that they know what they're seeing and how they're supposed to evaluate it.

    Having skated themselves at a reasonably high level is one good way to gain that knowledge. Having judged a strong domestic field of high-level teams is another good way.

    But, for example, starting domestically in a small European country, getting an international judging appointment at a young age because of lack of competition for appointments at home, and then spending years traveling to junior and senior B events around Europe to judge, learning on the job, before eventually getting promoted to ISU judge and getting GP assignments would be another possible route for someone who's motivated and quick on the uptake.

    Starting ice dance lessons as an adult would also be useful for a judge who hadn't been a dancer before becoming a judge. Most dance judges were ice dancers before they became judges, but a small country with a new program might have to grow their judging pool from scratch.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    On the other hand, such judges might be more impartial, having no rooster in the pit.
    Just the opposite from what I hear as they are likely to be more suseptible to peer pressure and protocol judging.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    This is true. However, being a former skater does not automatically make you a good person.

    Or, for that matter, a bad one.

    Consider the unpleasant case of Wolfgang Schwarz, 1968 Olympic gold medalist:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Schwarz
    Nothing is absolute, of course as there are always some exceptions and some bad calls. I heard that Judy Blumberg (USA) will be on the tech panel at Worlds this year. Marie Bowness (CAN) is scheduled to be the tech controller.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    Nothing is absolute, of course as there are always some exceptions and some bad calls. I heard that Judy Blumberg (USA) will be on the tech panel at Worlds this year. Marie Bowness (CAN) is scheduled to be the tech controller.
    I like that,I think they are both more strict callers.

  8. #23
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    Even if this judging culture is as prevalent today as it was pre 6.0, if a skater in an earlier group skates lights out or definitely of a higher standard that what they expected from a skater/couple from a lower group they will be rewarded.

    A good side to judging in the points system compared to 6.0 is that it is considerably easier for fluctuation of rankings to occur because every element is judged and if you make a mistake , the price is heavy!!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    Nothing is absolute, of course as there are always some exceptions and some bad calls. I heard that Judy Blumberg (USA) will be on the tech panel at Worlds this year. Marie Bowness (CAN) is scheduled to be the tech controller.

    Technical Controllers must be judges, and for Worlds and other ISU Championship events, the TC must be an ISU Technical Controller.

    There are only 18 ISU Technical Controllers for Ice Dance, and Canada doesn't have any. Karen Butcher and Leanna Caron are International Technical Controllers for Ice Dance, which means they can be a TC at a "B" International, but not at an ISU Championship.

    Marie Bowness is an ISU Technical Specialist, not a Technical Controller. She is certified to act as a TS at ISU Championship events.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GF2445 View Post
    Even if this judging culture is as prevalent today as it was pre 6.0, if a skater in an earlier group skates lights out or definitely of a higher standard that what they expected from a skater/couple from a lower group they will be rewarded.

    A good side to judging in the points system compared to 6.0 is that it is considerably easier for fluctuation of rankings to occur because every element is judged and if you make a mistake , the price is heavy!!
    At least with IJS you can look at the protocol sheets and SEE exactly where a skater gained or lost points.

    Two perfect-looking performances with similar technical content... What was the difference between 1st and 2nd? Ah... the 1st skater lost a little GOE on the 3Flip, but overcame it because the 2nd only had a Level 3 diagonal step.

    OK, so maybe the PCS aren't so clearly defined, but it's still a huge step up from the only public notice of scoring being "5.7"

    ETA: Ooops... just realized this was an Ice Dance thread... so 3Flip example not relevant... but you get the idea.

  11. #26
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    What is the difference between technical controller and specialist and which have more "power"?

  12. #27
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    "SPECIAL REGULATIONS & TECHNICAL RULES SINGLE & PAIR SKATING and ICE DANCE 2012, as accepted by the 54th Ordinary Congress June 2012,"






    Page 62 and following

    3. Duties and powers of the Technical Controller
    – authorizes or corrects the deletion of elements;

    – supervises the Technical Specialists and Data Operator and proposes corrections, if necessary, respecting any performed element and Level of Difficulty identified by the serving Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist. However, if both Technical Specialists disagree with a correction asked for by the Technical Controller, the initial decision of the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist stands. In the case a disagreement about an element and/or Level of Difficulty exists between the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist, the decision of the Technical Controller prevails;


    The Technical Controller is responsible to verify that the performed elements and Levels of Difficulty identified in accordance with the above-mentioned procedure are correctly introduced into the system by the Data Operator and the performed elements and Levels of Difficulty may be validated only upon formal confirmation by the Technical Controller that such verification has been completed;
    – authorizes or corrects the identification of Illegal Elements/Movements;
    – authorizes or corrects the identification of a fall, which occurred in any part of the program, including introductory and concluding steps/movements in Pattern Dance (does not apply to Pattern Dance Elements).
    However if both Technical Specialists disagree with a correction on Illegal Elements/Movements or falls asked for by the Technical Controller, the initial decision of the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist stands;
    – moderates the Round Table Discussion together with the Referee according to ISU guidelines (see Rule 432);
    – prepares the Report on the event according to ISU guidelines (see Rule 433);
    – participates in the victory ceremony.

    The Technical Specialist
    – identifies and calls the performed elements;
    – identifies and calls correct Levels of Difficulty of the performed elements;
    – identifies Illegal Elements/Movements;
    – identifies a fall, which occurred in any part of the program, including introductory and concluding steps/movements in Pattern Dance;
    – identifies and deletes additional elements.
    The Assistant Technical Specialist is also part of the decision making process as outlined under the duties of the Technical Controller.
    Who has the most "power" could be debated. The Technical Specialist calls the levels. If the tech specialist & assistant tech specialist disagree on the level, the Tech controller has the deciding vote, and is perceived as the "boss" of the panel, but for my money, the tech specialist has the most power over the final score.

  13. #28
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    Thanks dorispulaski! It seems to me like the specialist does all the work and the controller just supervises that everything goes alright.

  14. #29
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    One thing I like about IJS is that a fan can look all this stuff up on the internet. I daresay if we were still on 6.0, that you could look stuff up too nowadays, but it is possible to find out why most calls went the way they did by looking up the rules, and reading the questions that ISU members have forwarded for answers (those are also on the ISU website).

    However, it is a fact, that there are some calls that I still don't understand, and they are usually of the sort, "If even I can see something went wrong with that step sequence, why was it called level 4????) Since your competitors can't question your score, if you luck out with the tech panel, it is now more clear to me why an inexplicable inflated call can be left to stand. There is no real mechanism to correct too high a level given by a tech panel; after all, what competitor would complain their score was too high

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