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Thread: Counter Clockwise rotation vs. Clockwise rotation

  1. #16
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Rohene could also do 3S in both directions. I wish he had had more of a head for competition. However, he is doing the European tours of Holiday on Ice, and choreographing for Jason Brown and a couple of other skaters. He is not lost to skating, which is a good thing, IMO

    Another skater who left all too soon was Yebin Mok; she has also resurfaced as a pro skater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    My personal preference is for pairs that jump/spin the same direction, although I thought Kristie/Rudy had some innovative moves. On another thread I mentioned that their pair spiral into mirror 2Axels may be my favorite pairs move ever.

    I would think that these couples would be at a disadvantage on skills like pairs spins or death spirals because one of the partners is rotating in an "against the grain" direction. I suppose the man's natural spin direction would carry the day on most lifts, wouldn't it take some getting used to on the part of the lady?

    I wonder if any ice dance teams are composed of opposite skaters...
    It would be hard to find out, since dancers are required to step, twizzle and spin in both directions.

    You can get the man's preferred direction from their rotational lifts. Getting to know the lady's preferred direction is tricky.

    Your best bet to guess is whether the lady has trouble with the first set of twizzles routinely, while if the man routinely has trouble with the second set (or the reverse), but really, they are supposed to be equally good in both directions.

    Or you could pull up their singles career vids (if they exist) and see which way they jump.

  2. #17
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    Really interesting discussion, I had not realized some skaters were capable of rotating in both directions. I always thought it'd be epic if a skater could pull off a 3Lutz-3Lutz combo. Meaning they do the second 3Lutz off the outside landing edge of the first jump rotating in the opposite direction. Lol, I won't be holding my breath for that.

  3. #18
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Rohene would be the only one, and he couldn't do the lutz both way.

    His prowess was apparently due to coming up in the ISI system rather than USFS system. ISI requires kids to demonstrate jumps in both directions for the highest test level.

    http://figureskating.about.com/od/glossaryl6/g/isi.htm

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    Oh, thanks for the info. I hadn't realized there was an ISI system that actually requires that. Double axels both ways is still pretty sweet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerio2 View Post
    Oh, thanks for the info. I hadn't realized there was an ISI system that actually requires that. Double axels both ways is still pretty sweet.
    I have seen a video of Rohene doing a 2Z in the opposite direction but can't seem to find it. Doing a double axel in both directions is crazy impressive though... I wonder if the computer would have to count that as a 2A+2A+C combination instead of a 2A+2A+S sequence?

    It's pretty easy to do single jumps in the opposite direction since a lot of them are like doing rockers or three turns or loops in the non-dominant direction. A fun game we'd play as younger skaters was a game of S.K.A.T.E. (like H.O.R.S.E.) with turns and jumps. E.g. LBO pivot, push off your right pick into an axel... a forward spin exiting into a 2S... or a back spin that exits into a reverse-single lutz... it's fun, and actually makes for unique choreography if it can be executed seamlessly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Doing a double axel in both directions is crazy impressive though... I wonder if the computer would have to count that as a 2A+2A+C combination instead of a 2A+2A+S sequence?
    I'm sure it would be counted either as a sequence or as a two separate jump elements, and therefore the skater would get much less credit for it than it deserves.

    I'd like to see a rule that would reward that kind of thing appropriately.

    For a combination, I'd propose something like an additional 0.5 per half revolution of the bad-direction jump added to the base value of the element.

    For jump sequences, maybe allow a single step or edge change without splitting the sequence into two separate elements and also add a bonus as above.

    This would also be better if sequences got full credit and combinations got bonuses at least for the second jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's pretty easy to do single jumps in the opposite direction
    Can someone please record themselves doing the single lutz both direction sequence and share it here? (I am too fat to skate anymore, damn plantar fasciitis)

  8. #23
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Can't do that, but has anyone posted Rohene Ward's audition tape, which shows him doing a number of jumps in both directions?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1-havgrIk

    The reverse jumps are about half way through.

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    Thanks, Doris.

    Man, you have to see it to believe it. What an impressive performance. This is ISI training? Why, then, don't we see this kind of amazing versatility more often?

    What's he doing now? This is defintely a guy who should be seen.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I wonder if any ice dance teams are composed of opposite skaters...
    I'd guess that Torvill & Dean might be the poster dance couple for this. Jayne Torvill competed in pairs before teaming up with Christopher Dean to do ice dance and she was a clockwise rotator in her singles/pairs skills. I'm not sure if Christopher Dean ever competed in any other disciplines, but if he's part of the majority that rotate anti-clockwise I'd guess they are opposite skaters. If you look back at some of their routines - they sometimes include a lift/throw that involves Jayne being spun outwards and she usually (always) rotates clockwise in that move. I also think they did a routine on Dancing on Ice in the past few weeks that had her spinning on her own and she spun clockwise.

    Edited : kept writing anti-clockwise instead of clockwise!
    Last edited by antmanb; 02-21-2013 at 09:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Can't do that, but has anyone posted Rohene Ward's audition tape, which shows him doing a number of jumps in both directions?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1-havgrIk

    The reverse jumps are about half way through.
    Yup this is the video. Just amazing talent.

  12. #27
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvi5 View Post
    That is also what I had heard. People who are right handed, typically wink with their right eye, kick with their right foot, etc. The right side of your body is controlled by the left side of your brain (and vice-versa). If your right foot/leg is dominant, it would be logical to spin counter-clockwise when you kick up to perform an Axel jump etc.

    However, there could be exceptions. During the commentary for the "Ice Princess" movie, Hayden Panettiere mentioned she learned to perform a basic Axel jump spinning counter-clockwise. However the double they eventually hired spun clockwise. Hayden complained she had to re-learn the jump spinning clock-wise, because the double was too good of a body-type match to pass-up as her double.
    Wait, she learned an AXEL to shoot the movie? Has she ever skated before?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Wait, she learned an AXEL to shoot the movie? Has she ever skated before?
    http://movies.about.com/od/iceprince...sshp031205.htm

    She apparently learned a scratch spin but I highly doubt she would have learned an axel, as that is a risky maneuver to learn for somebody who was just taking up skating. I remember Jillian Barberie on Skating with the Celebrities attempted to relearn the axel but unfortunately fell. It's a really hard jump to learn let alone master.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Thanks, Doris.

    Man, you have to see it to believe it. What an impressive performance. This is ISI training? Why, then, don't we see this kind of amazing versatility more often?
    I would think two reasons.

    1) Because ISI is not part of the path to the Olympics and the prestigious national and international events on that track, few ambitious talented skaters stick with the ISI program past the lower levels, and few of the less ambitious skaters who do stick with ISI reach the upper levels.

    2) Of those who do reach the upper levels, Freestyle 7 (approximately equivalent to USFS intermediate test) requires a single loop, flip, or lutz in the opposite direction, and Freestyle 9 (approximately equivalent to junior) requires either an axel in the opposite direction or a double axel; Freestyle 10 (approximately senior) requires double jumps in both directions or a triple toe jump-double loop combination.
    http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm...requirements#7

    So it's possible to get through the ISI tests without ever doing an opposite-direction jump harder than single loop. It's also possible to get through Freestyle 9 without doing a double axel or triple jump. But for Freestyle 9 and 10 you need at least one or the other.

    I think a skater of average ability will not be able to do those skills, especially with only a moderate amount of training time. So not very many skaters can pass ISI Freestyle 9 and especially Freestyle 10 -- only those who have talent and also the money to train many hours a week and who choose to stick with ISI even when they are at a skill level at which they could do well in ISU-style competition.

    The number of those who also compete in ISU-track competition will put more emphasis on training triple jumps than opposite-direction doubles. Skaters who have the talent to do both are few and far between.

    And since there's no explicit reward for opposite-direction jumps in ISU rules, skaters who are aiming to succeed there don't spend their time developing that skill. With the IJS as it currently stands, not only is there no reward but in effect there's a penalty because the GOEs are likely to be lower and the double jumps take up slots that could be more profitably used for triples.

    However, if the ISU wanted to encourage that skill they could build rewards into the scale of values. I would like to see that happen.

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    Counter Clockwise rotation vs. Clockwise rotation

    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Wait, she learned an AXEL to shoot the movie? Has she ever skated before?
    Except for Hayden and Michelle, everyone seen skating in the movie is, or has been, a competition skater. All had doubles, except Julianna Cannarozzo. Both Hayden and Michelle had to undergo extensive training for months at their local rinks, and while on set.

    During the scene where Michelle's character is using her computer to fix Hayden's character's Axel jump, they showed someone performing a double Axel (spinning clockwise). At the point of jump take-off, Hayden quickly injects her commentary..."that's me skating right there". However after performing the 2.5 spins, I noticed there is a break in the video flow. It appears they may have edited another person actually landing the jump. (..or herself in two parts ie. an Axel take-off, followed by any jump landing)

    In Michelle's case, she was proud that she was filmed doing a spread-eagle herself..."that's all me, what's up, right there baby". In the commentary, she also said her trainer told her she was unique because her hip structure allowed her to perform a spread-eagle in a straight line down the rink, as opposed to a curved path.
    Last edited by rvi5; 02-20-2013 at 06:18 PM.

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