Counter Clockwise rotation vs. Clockwise rotation

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Doing a double axel in both directions is crazy impressive though... I wonder if the computer would have to count that as a 2A+2A+C combination instead of a 2A+2A+S sequence?

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I'm sure it would be counted either as a sequence or as a two separate jump elements, and therefore the skater would get much less credit for it than it deserves.

I'd like to see a rule that would reward that kind of thing appropriately.

For a combination, I'd propose something like an additional 0.5 per half revolution of the bad-direction jump added to the base value of the element.

For jump sequences, maybe allow a single step or edge change without splitting the sequence into two separate elements and also add a bonus as above.

This would also be better if sequences got full credit and combinations got bonuses at least for the second jump.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

It's pretty easy to do single jumps in the opposite direction

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Can someone please record themselves doing the single lutz both direction sequence and share it here? (I am too fat to skate anymore, damn plantar fasciitis)

Can't do that, but has anyone posted Rohene Ward's audition tape, which shows him doing a number of jumps in both directions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1-havgrIk

The reverse jumps are about half way through.

Thanks, Doris.

Man, you have to see it to believe it. What an impressive performance. This is ISI training? Why, then, don't we see this kind of amazing versatility more often?

What's he doing now? This is defintely a guy who should be seen.

TontoK said:

I wonder if any ice dance teams are composed of opposite skaters...

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I'd guess that Torvill & Dean might be the poster dance couple for this. Jayne Torvill competed in pairs before teaming up with Christopher Dean to do ice dance and she was a clockwise rotator in her singles/pairs skills. I'm not sure if Christopher Dean ever competed in any other disciplines, but if he's part of the majority that rotate anti-clockwise I'd guess they are opposite skaters. If you look back at some of their routines - they sometimes include a lift/throw that involves Jayne being spun outwards and she usually (always) rotates clockwise in that move. I also think they did a routine on Dancing on Ice in the past few weeks that had her spinning on her own and she spun clockwise.

Edited : kept writing anti-clockwise instead of clockwise!

dorispulaski said:

Can't do that, but has anyone posted Rohene Ward's audition tape, which shows him doing a number of jumps in both directions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1-havgrIk

The reverse jumps are about half way through.

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Yup this is the video. Just amazing talent.

rvi5 said:

That is also what I had heard. People who are right handed, typically wink with their right eye, kick with their right foot, etc. The right side of your body is controlled by the left side of your brain (and vice-versa). If your right foot/leg is dominant, it would be logical to spin counter-clockwise when you kick up to perform an Axel jump etc.

However, there could be exceptions. During the commentary for the "Ice Princess" movie, Hayden Panettiere mentioned she learned to perform a basic Axel jump spinning counter-clockwise. However the double they eventually hired spun clockwise. Hayden complained she had to re-learn the jump spinning clock-wise, because the double was too good of a body-type match to pass-up as her double.

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Wait, she learned an AXEL to shoot the movie? Has she ever skated before?

shine said:

Wait, she learned an AXEL to shoot the movie? Has she ever skated before?

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http://movies.about.com/od/iceprincess/a/princsshp031205.htm

She apparently learned a scratch spin but I highly doubt she would have learned an axel, as that is a risky maneuver to learn for somebody who was just taking up skating. I remember Jillian Barberie on Skating with the Celebrities attempted to relearn the axel but unfortunately fell. It's a really hard jump to learn let alone master.

Olympia said:

Thanks, Doris.

Man, you have to see it to believe it. What an impressive performance. This is ISI training? Why, then, don't we see this kind of amazing versatility more often?

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I would think two reasons.

1) Because ISI is not part of the path to the Olympics and the prestigious national and international events on that track, few ambitious talented skaters stick with the ISI program past the lower levels, and few of the less ambitious skaters who do stick with ISI reach the upper levels.

2) Of those who do reach the upper levels, Freestyle 7 (approximately equivalent to USFS intermediate test) requires a single loop, flip, or lutz in the opposite direction, and Freestyle 9 (approximately equivalent to junior) requires either an axel in the opposite direction or a double axel; Freestyle 10 (approximately senior) requires double jumps in both directions or a triple toe jump-double loop combination.
http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=testing_requirements#7

So it's possible to get through the ISI tests without ever doing an opposite-direction jump harder than single loop. It's also possible to get through Freestyle 9 without doing a double axel or triple jump. But for Freestyle 9 and 10 you need at least one or the other.

I think a skater of average ability will not be able to do those skills, especially with only a moderate amount of training time. So not very many skaters can pass ISI Freestyle 9 and especially Freestyle 10 -- only those who have talent and also the money to train many hours a week and who choose to stick with ISI even when they are at a skill level at which they could do well in ISU-style competition.

The number of those who also compete in ISU-track competition will put more emphasis on training triple jumps than opposite-direction doubles. Skaters who have the talent to do both are few and far between.

And since there's no explicit reward for opposite-direction jumps in ISU rules, skaters who are aiming to succeed there don't spend their time developing that skill. With the IJS as it currently stands, not only is there no reward but in effect there's a penalty because the GOEs are likely to be lower and the double jumps take up slots that could be more profitably used for triples.

However, if the ISU wanted to encourage that skill they could build rewards into the scale of values. I would like to see that happen.

shine said:

Wait, she learned an AXEL to shoot the movie? Has she ever skated before?

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Except for Hayden and Michelle, everyone seen skating in the movie is, or has been, a competition skater. All had doubles, except Julianna Cannarozzo. Both Hayden and Michelle had to undergo extensive training for months at their local rinks, and while on set.

During the scene where Michelle's character is using her computer to fix Hayden's character's Axel jump, they showed someone performing a double Axel (spinning clockwise). At the point of jump take-off, Hayden quickly injects her commentary..."that's me skating right there". However after performing the 2.5 spins, I noticed there is a break in the video flow. It appears they may have edited another person actually landing the jump. (..or herself in two parts ie. an Axel take-off, followed by any jump landing)

In Michelle's case, she was proud that she was filmed doing a spread-eagle herself..."that's all me, what's up, right there baby". In the commentary, she also said her trainer told her she was unique because her hip structure allowed her to perform a spread-eagle in a straight line down the rink, as opposed to a curved path.

antmanb said:

I'd guess that Torvill & Dean might be the poster dance couple for this. Jayne Torvill competed in pairs before teaming up with Christopher Dean to do ice dance and she was a clockwise rotator in her singles/pairs skills. I'm not sure if Christopher Dean ever competed in any other disciplines, but if he's part of the majority that rotate anti-clockwise I'd guess they are opposite skaters. If you look back at some of their routines - they sometimes include a lift/throw that involves Jayne being spun outwards and she usually (always) rotates anti-clockwise in that move. I also think they did a routine on Dancing on Ice in the past few weeks that had her spinning on her own and she spun anti-clockwise.

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antmanb, Good to see you back!

Interesting stuff about Torvill & Dean my forever favorite ice dancers.

Sonia Henie did clockwise Lutz jumps and the remainder of her jumps and spins in a counterclockwise direction.

Melon said:

I know there are skaters like Caro, Wagner, and Weir who turns clockwise. Which skaters in the past, (before CoP era) turned clockwise?

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Scott & Duhlebon were clockwise jumpers.

Melon said:

I've always been wondering about this ever since I watched figure skating.
I know majority of skaters rotate counter clockwise when they are executing their jumps, and there are few who executes clockwise.

What's the reason for them to turn clockwise?
Are certain jumps easier/harder when doing clockwise (compared to counter clockwise)? Iknow there are skaters like Caro, Wagner, and Weir who turns clockwise. Which skaters in the past, (before CoP era) turned clockwise?

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Yes, it is mainly to do with the left-hand, right-hand preference of a skater. Although some skaters, like Karen Magnussen for example learn to jump and spin in both directions. At one time it was thuought to be better for the skaters conditioning and overall balance to be able to do their jumps and spins both clockwise and counterclockwise. I am not sure if this is the thinking by today's coaches. Skaters must also learn to do their edges, and cross-cuts clockwise and counterclockwise for their basic skating skills.

Ladskater said:

At one time it was thuought to be better for the skaters conditioning and overall balance to be able to do their jumps and spins both clockwise and counterclockwise. I am not sure if this is the thinking by today's coaches.

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I haven't come across any coaches who teach skaters to jump and spin in both directions except as a novelty if the skater happens to show an aptitude for it. Not even 40 years ago when I was first starting.

A lot of coaches can do basic spins and single jumps in both directions because they have to demonstrate for their skaters who prefer each direction. This is especially true for coaches whose preferred direction is clockwise, since most of their students will rotate counterclockwise.

Skaters must also learn to do their edges, and cross-cuts clockwise and counterclockwise for their basic skating skills.

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Yes, this is required on the moves in the field tests in the US and similar tests in other countries. School figures also used to require all the turns on both feet, edges, directions.

Melon said:

I've always been wondering about this ever since I watched figure skating.
I know majority of skaters rotate counter clockwise when they are executing their jumps, and there are few who executes clockwise.

What's the reason for them to turn clockwise?
Are certain jumps easier/harder when doing clockwise (compared to counter clockwise)?
I know there are skaters like Caro, Wagner, and Weir who turns clockwise. Which skaters in the past, (before CoP era) turned clockwise?

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Sarah Hughes, Alissa Czisny (pre and post COP).

Actually, John Curry USED to spin clockwise and jump counterclockwise before going to work with Carlo Fassi. Carlo made him relearn his spins CCW and it magically made his (few) triples more consistent.

It's such a b**** being a CW skater on a busy FS session because all your element set ups are exactly opposite everyone else and coaches who teach their more basic students in corners tend to choose the CW Lutz corner because "no one uses them" which is VERY annoying. Having been in rinks for the most part of my life, I've typically been around very few other CW skaters, although two of my closest skating friends are also both CW skaters.