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Thread: Would Dick Button's "firsts" have been ratified today?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Would Dick Button's "firsts" have been ratified today?

    Dick Button made history by landing the first double Axel, at the 1948 Olympics. Here it is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbvdlMkJCMo#t=0m10s

    He also landed the first triple jump, a triple loop, at the 1952 Olympics. Here it is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbvdlMkJCMo#t=0m32s

    What do you think? < or <<?

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    LOL you're an imp, yes you are.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    I think that the 2A was <, when the loop was clean. But... they had such a terrible arms position in those years! All their limbs were bent in strange positions when they jumped...

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    Congrats to him!!! But somehow it is strange to see, not a pretty sight...I agree with FSGMT.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Dick Button (or rather, his coach, Gustave Lussi) introduced the back spin position in the air. He tended to go almost straight up, then back down almost in the same place, with very little horizontal ice coverage.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j-9lXwSM8A#t=0m37s

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    I think Mr. Button would comment the set up or telegraphing was too much. It was like wind up and jump and yes bad position - negative GOE's lol.

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    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I think that the 2A was <, when the loop was clean. But... they had such a terrible arms position in those years! All their limbs were bent in strange positions when they jumped...
    That's what I see!

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    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
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    I love it! Under rotated for sure.... The question is, if Mr. B of back then took his tests today, what level would they give him? Could he make novice?
    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    LOL you're an imp, yes you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteChris View Post
    I love it! Under rotated for sure.... The question is, if Mr. B of back then took his tests today, what level would they give him? Could he make novice?
    I'm sure Button would have had no problem passing the current senior tests.

    The jump content required on the US tests is not very onerous compared to what is required in competition, let alone what is required to win. Nor do the tests require higher level spins or step sequences.

    And the Moves in the Field tests should not be too difficult for someone who had passed all the figure tests. Although he would need to learn how to twizzle.

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    I don't know, but I read recently that Henie's jump technique would not be considered good by today's standards. But these skaters were pioneers and what they did would, of course, as time went by be improved on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteChris View Post
    I love it! Under rotated for sure.... The question is, if Mr. B of back then took his tests today, what level would they give him? Could he make novice?
    LOL...it was meant as a compliment...imps are fun!

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    I don't know, but I read recently that Henie's jump technique would not be considered good by today's standards. But these skaters were pioneers and what they did would, of course, as time went by be improved on.
    Here is a pretty good Lutz. Note that she did her Lutz clockwise, but all her other jumps and spins were counterclockwise.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE#t=0m23s

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    In the first video that Mathman posted, they show (after the 2A, at 00:25) his FO camel spin (the first man ever to do it), and it was as good as the ones that most of the men do today (and better than most of the low-level men!)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    I don't know, but I read recently that Henie's jump technique would not be considered good by today's standards.
    I didn't say that Sonja Henie could pass today's tests. She didn't have the double jumps. There was a big shift in jump content from before to after WWII. Barbara Ann Scott could have passed today's US tests.

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    Here's Donald Jackson in 1962. He was one of the first skaters to do several different triple jumps. (Notice that he skates to Carmen!)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alrsemq_mzQ

    When Jackson came back to skate for awhile in the eighties, Button said something about how skaters from those days held their landing positions longer than more modern skaters.

    One thing that gets me about Sonia Henie when I watch her is her upper body carriage. She bends and almost hunches her shoulders. The open shoulders and erect back of today, so beautifully exemplified by Dorothy Hamill and Yuka Sato, didn't seem to exist at the time.

    I wonder whether the introduction of dance training for skaters might have helped the change. It's interesting to think of Laurence Owen, who was coached by her mother, Maribel Vinson Owen, a contemporary of Henie. Laurence clearly had dance training, but Don Jackson, her contemporary, didn't. I guess in the West the feeling was, why would a guy do dance training....That might have come in with the Soviets, and then of course John Curry.

    Here's Owen.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0114AudgYms

    Of course, if any of those skaters were young and training today, they'd train with modern methods and would land their jumps just as rotated as anyone. Sonia Henie, for example, was unusually athletic for her day. Today, she would not be attempting single jumps to pass the tests.
    Last edited by Olympia; 02-21-2013 at 09:14 PM.

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