Which Ladies Can Skate a 130+ LP at Worlds?

SkateNater · Feb 26, 2013

Mathman said:
The remarkable statistic is that Yu-na Kim has never, at any level, finished lower than third in any competition. That is the remarkable statistic.

It is permissible for someone to post a remarkable statistic even if that statistic was not mentioned in any post of SkateNater.

"or"

Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that...

CarneAsada · Feb 26, 2013

SkateNater said:
"or"

Is it really that hard for you to comprehend that...

It's not anyone's fault but yours when you say "3rd or 4th" as if both results are possible or have occurred. Yu-Na Kim is physically incapable of finishing off the podium in competition, so please stop slandering her by insinuating that she has the ability to bomb herself all the way down to 4th place.

Mathman · Feb 26, 2013

Um.., Nate, I am not arguing with you. Your post called to mind a remarkable fact that about Kim's career. I thought it might be something interesting to share with the board. I have no quarrel with your "or." Peace, bro.

FlattFan · Feb 26, 2013

Mathman said:
Um.., Nate, I am not arguing with you. Your post called to mind a remarkable fact that about Kim's career. I thought it might be something interesting to share with the board. I have no quarrel with your "or." Peace, bro.

As Chaka Khan said, "I feel for you," after making the mistake of engaging in conversations with Yuna's fans.

minze · Feb 26, 2013

SkateNater said:
No, that's your euphoric opinion.

What puts people off is when they go look at a video on YouTube and see Mao and YuNa ubers spewing racist drivel in each other's face, arguing about things that make absolutely no sense, among other things.

As far as her Triple Axel goes. We went over this in the 4CC thread. The video speaks for itself. Your "opinion" is useless in that matter (as is mine, which is really unnecessary given the video exists for all to see). Whether the judges call it or not is independent of what it actually is, right there, on the video. The judges scores said Witt was good at figures, too, but it doesn't change the fact that she was mediocre at best. Mao will always get more leeway on her 3A just by virtue of being the only woman throwing that jump right now. If it was a common element in Ladies skating I doubt people would be as lenient with it as they currently are - seeing as how it's really her only way to remain competitive these days.

It's "ad nauseum," by the way.

correcting someone's spelling or grammar on a forum is the most juvinile thing you can do in a message board.

And as we discover in 4cc forum your video did not prove anything. Peace English Teacher, thank you for the grammar lesson

FlattFan · Feb 26, 2013

eyria said:
Well, compare Mao's record to some other big names (I'll just put a few in here):

Mao: 3 medals in 6 appearances
Witt: 6 medals in 9 appearances
Slutskaya: 6 medals in 9 appearances
Kwan: 9 medals in 12 appearances
Cohen: 3 medals in 5 appearances
Kim: 5 medals in 5 appearances

From this, you can see Mao's medal-winning percentage is not as high as many others'. Of course 3 world medals, including 2 gold, is nothing to sneeze at. It's just that when you're talking about all-time greats, Mao is not quite as high up as you might expect.

I take Mao's records over all of the above, minus Kim and Kwan.
Since when are Cohen, Witt, Slutskaya are all time greats?

Cherryy · Feb 26, 2013

As others said, Yuna, Carolina and Mao can all get 130+ quite easily, I would say that if clean, they ALL can get 140+. Then I would say that Liza is the next one that is the most likely to get 130 because she's already done it this year and getting such big scores at europeans is as difficult as at worlds. Then it's probably Ashley as she almost hit 130 twice this season without either 2A-3T ar a 3-3 so she has a lot of room to gain points. After them it's Akiko and Adelina and I consider their chances of 130 quite equal. Adelina is less consistent but has higher BV.
Osmond and Gold can score huuuge if clean but again, it's not that likely. I doubt home ground will help her so much. Sure it will a little but man, she's not going to get 70 PCS just for skating in Canada. She didn't even scored 60 at 4cc and Skate Canada so her PCS is not going to rise that drastically.
Kanako just won't break the 130 mark. Just like Zijun won't get 120+. Sad but true.
An important thing to consider and clarify is whether we are talking about hypothetical and just potential scores or the most probable. Out of Liza, Ashley, Adelina, Akiko, Gracie and Kaetlyn, Liza is the best bet for 130+ but almost all the others have higher potential scoring programs than she has.

Blades of Passion · Feb 26, 2013

SkateNater said:
GOE is based on bullets. It's objective.

LOL. This isn't objectivity. That would assume the bullet-points themselves within the rules are objective. But they aren't.

Bartek · Feb 26, 2013

FlattFan said:
I take Mao's records over all of the above, minus Kim and Kwan.
Since when are Cohen, Witt, Slutskaya are all time greats?

Slutskaya? Hmm, that must be since 2006 when she won 7th European title showing remarkable longevity and dominating the field for two years twice (the second one in quite an advanced age as for ladies' figure skating). Firstly from 2000-2002 when she beat Kwan repeatedly every time they met apart from two competitions and then late in her career from 2004-2006 when she lost only two competitions out of about 13 (GPF and Olympics). Besides, she was one of the best jumpers in the history, probably right after Midori Ito and she had fantastic fast and difficult spins to match those jumps. Moreover, she proved to be very versatile when she easily switched from 6.0 to CoP and was equally succesful under both systems, something that e.g. Kwan was not able to accomplish.

SkateNater · Feb 26, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
Or you could look at it like this:

Mao - 2 wins in 6 attempts
Yuna - 1 win in 5 attempts
Slutskaya - 2 wins in 9 attempts
Cohen - 0 wins in 5 attempts

If winning is more important than medaling, the other women look terrible next to Mao. I don't think that's the case, but the point is that it is silly to twist these competitive results to say Mao's career has not been up to par.

Winning is certainly more than medaling, but consistency and longevity do matter.

Slutskaya won her first world medal in 1996 and ended her Career with a 2005 World Title and 2006 OBM.

Do you see Asada winning a World Medal in 2017-18 with just as much technical content in her program (or more) than she had when she just burst onto the scene? Irina was a phenom for her technical ability (and relative consistency, considering she was at the forefront of pushing the boundaries technically in the 1990s and early 2000s), and Kwan was a phenom for her consistency. If not for Kwan, Slutskaya would likely have 4-5 World Titles and an OGM (which she arguably should have gotten if the judges had put her in first place after the SP in 2002, which she deserved - but with it maybe she'd have retired so who knows).

jenaj · Feb 26, 2013

Bartek said:
Moreover, she proved to be very versatile when she easily switched from 6.0 to CoP and was equally succesful under both systems, something that e.g. Kwan was not able to accomplish.

I agree that Irina's competitive record puts her among the greats, but it's not fair to claim Michelle couldn't be successful under COP, since she only competed under the system once. By that logic, Tara Lipinski, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill and Janet Lynn were also not able to achieve success under the new system!

Mathman · Feb 26, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
Or you could look at it like this:

Mao - 2 wins in 6 attempts
Yuna - 1 win in 5 attempts
Slutskaya - 2 wins in 9 attempts
Cohen - 0 wins in 5 attempts

Now we're getting somewhere! :yes:

Ladies who have a 50% or better winning percentage at worlds (post World War II)

Barbara Ann Scott 100% (2 for 2)
Oksana Baiul 100% (1 for 1)
Carol Heiss 71% (5 for 7)
Peggy Fleming 60% (3 for 5)
Michelle Kwan 50% (5 for 10)
Alena Vrzanova 50% (2 for 4)
Kristi Yamaguchi 50% (2 for 4)
Jeanette Allweg 50% (1 for 2)
Rosalynn Sumners 50% (1 for 2)
Tara Lipinski 50% (1 for 2)

Did I forget anyone?

SkateNater · Feb 26, 2013

FlattFan said:
As Chaka Khan said, "I feel for you," after making the mistake of engaging in conversations with Yuna's fans.

I've been more critical of YuNa that you probably have ever been on this forum. I am certainly not a "fan" of hers, and definitely not an "uber fan" of hers, that's for sure.

I've been as critical of YuNa as I have of Kostner and Asada on this forum.

Only difference is the Mao fans tend to get a bit more worked up by the criticism, which turns it into a much bigger conversation.

clairecloutier · Feb 26, 2013

FlattFan said:
Since when are Cohen, Witt, Slutskaya are all time greats?

Are you really suggesting that Katarina Witt--two-time Olympic gold medalist, four-time world champion--is not an all-time great?

jenaj · Feb 26, 2013

Mathman said:
Astonishingly, Yu-na Kim has never finished off the podium in any skating competition whatever. Not as a child, not in juniors, not in senior competitions, Grand Prix, Worlds -- never. I don't know any other skater who can claim such a mind-boggling statistic.

Edited to add: Maybe Dick Button?

The age rule helped Yu Na. Michelle went to Worlds at age 14 and 15. And she probably deserved to be on the podium in 1995. Tara was 13 at her first trip to Worlds, wasn't she? I'm sure there are other examples. Kim also had no competition in Korea.

Mathman · Feb 26, 2013

^ I'm still impressed, even so. :yes:

But yeah, Michelle was no slouch. And she should have medaled at 1995 worlds.

Maybe 2005 as well, but I don't want to make any Carolina fans mad.

FlattFan · Feb 26, 2013

Bartek said:
Slutskaya? Hmm, that must be since 2006 when she won 7th European title showing remarkable longevity and dominating the field for two years twice (the second one in quite an advanced age as for ladies' figure skating). Firstly from 2000-2002 when she beat Kwan repeatedly every time they met apart from two competitions and then late in her career from 2004-2006 when she lost only two competitions out of about 13 (GPF and Olympics). Besides, she was one of the best jumpers in the history, probably right after Midori Ito and she had fantastic fast and difficult spins to match those jumps. Moreover, she proved to be very versatile when she easily switched from 6.0 to CoP and was equally succesful under both systems, something that e.g. Kwan was not able to accomplish.

Well, those Euro titles, she won with two clean triples, and a bunch of falls.
Her skill is questionable. Her spiral is wobbly. Her lutz is a flutz. She had no flow out of any jump.
One of the best jumpers? Really?

2002-2006 were weak weak weak. She would be eaten alive in the 2006-2010 era.

So no, she's no where near all time great.

SkateNater · Feb 26, 2013

jenaj said:
I agree that Irina's competitive record puts her among the greats, but it's not fair to claim Michelle couldn't be successful under COP, since she only competed under the system once. By that logic, Tara Lipinski, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill and Janet Lynn were also not able to achieve success under the new system!

We don't know because Lipinski, Fleming, Hamill, or Lynn didn't skate under the new system - at all.

However, Lipinski had all the skills she needed to compete under CoP and since she continued to do triple flips and Lutzes, salchows, and toe loops (loops she hardly did due to hip injury) - even Lutzes in combination with 2Toe up until the 2000-2001 time frame she could have done well under it with her difficulty. She said she could still do triple-triples around the time SLC rolled around, and there really isn't any reason to doubt her. Spins are the major area Lipinski would have really had to initiate revamps to her skillset, but she was a decent spinner.

Kwan's jumps and spins simply weren't competitive with the top ladies in 2005. There is no way she could have beaten Slutskaya at 2005 worlds, even if she was perfect, and it would have been hard for her to make the podium in Turino even with the mistakes made, though some argue Cohen's placement given her performance there (in the FS). She simply didn't exploit the CoP the way Slutskaya and her coaches/choreographers did in 2005 and she didn't have as good jump content. With the hip issues thrown in there, it was too hard to safely explore those areas for her.

Michelle skated with those issues for quite a while (as did Tara and others like Galindo, for example) so her perseverance, strength, and drive is unquestionable. I think her "school" of skating (emphasis on artistry with "just enough" technical difficulty) died with the 6.0 system.

SkateNater · Feb 26, 2013

FlattFan said:
Well, those Euro titles, she won with two clean triples, and a bunch of falls.
Her skill is questionable. Her spiral is wobbly. Her lutz is a flutz. She had no flow out of any jump.
One of the best jumpers? Really?

2002-2006 were weak weak weak. She would be eaten alive in the 2006-2010 era.

So no, she's no where near all time great.

The 98 Olypmics were a bit more competitive than the 2010 Olympics, for example. The 2002 Olympics were about on par. 2006 was a bit meh but I think the move from 6.0 to CoP did have a bit of an impact there. A lot of skaters simply hadn't adjusted well to it by then.

Slutskaya did win like 6 World Medals. 96, 98, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2005 she was on the podium. Winning twice. 3 times she was the silver medalist behind Kwan. She had a rather brilliant track record in international competition especially in the 2001 and 2002 seasons (as well as 2005) - going into the WC undefeated in the former two. She was one of the best short program skaters in the history of figure skating, especially post-puberty and to say her jumps had no flow coming out is a bit of an exaggeration. Her 2001 Worlds and 2002 Olympic short programs can still serve as technical clinics for many skaters, including in those areas where you state her as being deficient.

As for her spiral, that's an interesting topic of discussion. A few years ago on another forum someone criticized her spiral because the levels and GOE she got was comparable to Cohen's Spiral. Someone then posted a comparative graphic that showed Slutsksya's edge was probably 3x deeper than Cohen's edges on her her spirals. Different strokes for different folks. Personally I think her spiral in 6.0 was a throw away element just like her footwork under CoP. She really didn't need super high GOE on it as long as it got a level 3 or 4 she was fine since she gained so much on jumps and spins.

I think I've seen enough to know who to take seriously and those who don't care for my views are free to block/ignore/not respond to my posts

Mathman · Feb 26, 2013

Michelle's jump difficulty wasn't all that bad compared to today's ladies.

Here are the top four in the free skate at last years Worlds.

Kostner: 3Lo, 3F, 2A+3T, 3F+2T, 2A, 3S, 3S+2T+2T

Suzuki: 3Lz, 2A+3T, 3F, 3Lo+2T+2Lo<. 3S, 1Lz+2T, 3Lo

Wagner: 3F+2T+2Lo, 2A+3T<, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3S, 3Lo+2T, 3F

Leonova: 3T+3T, 3Lo, 3Lz, 3F+2T, 3S+2T, 3F, 2A

Michelle at 2001 Worlds: 3Lo, 3T+3T, 3Lz+2T, 3S, 3F, 2A, 3Lz

Granted, Michelle needs to tack on a +2T+2Lo somewhere to be a real CoPer.

Which Ladies Can Skate a 130+ LP at Worlds?

SkateNater

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CarneAsada

Mathman

FlattFan

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minze

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Cherryy

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Bartek

SkateNater

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jenaj

Mathman

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clairecloutier

jenaj

Mathman

FlattFan

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