Victims of techincal minimums fall through the cracks

GF2445 · Feb 23, 2013

I've had a look at the entry list for the ice dance event at the 2013 worlds.
I did a quick comparison of everybody's official PB score and I'm peeved that some of the teams who can't go (who are generally from non-european nations) are actually stronger skaters than some of the other skaters (who are generally from European nations) who managed to get their minimums from senior B's where the judging was either stingy or overly inflated.

This year there will be no Chinese, Australian or Uzbeki ice dance teams (surprise surpise non-european nations) and there are definitely some european teams who are not as strong as them (Don't get me wrong they got their spot fair and square).

There is a definite disadvantage representing a non-european nation, especially in Ice Dance. This is evident in the fact that the Bavarian open (the last Ice Dance competition at a senior B before worlds) was held during four continents. There is now no chance for these stronger skaters like Xun/Zheng (12th in Nice), Obrien/Merriman (20th in Nice) and Nagornyuk/Kovalenko (Made it to SD) to have a crack at worlds, which happens to serve as the olympic qualifier.

I wish they had a minimum segment score instead of a minimum technical score. The quality of a couple's skating should not be solely measured by their technical score only. The idea of using 4CC/Europeans as a way to qualify to the world championships seems like a more sensible option.

I'm just one person with one opinion. What do you think? Please comment below

Ziggy · Feb 23, 2013

They should just scrap the minimum scores altogether and make the federations and not the organiser responsible for covering skaters' costs.

ice coverage · Feb 23, 2013

GF2445 said:
There is now no chance for these stronger skaters like Xun/Zheng (12th in Nice), Obrien/Merriman (20th in Nice) and Nagornyuk/Kovalenko (Made it to SD) to have a crack at worlds, which happens to serve as the olympic qualifier.

FYI, Nebelhorn in September also will be a qualification event for the Olympics.

Ziggy said:
They should just scrap the minimum scores altogether and make the federations and not the organiser responsible for covering skaters' costs.

Wouldn't this requirement create a new obstacle for skaters from smaller federations that do not have the resources to fund costs at Worlds?

GF2445 · Feb 23, 2013

golden411 said:
FYI, Nebelhorn in September also will be a qualification event for the Olympics.

I understand that nebelhorn is an Olympic qualifying event. My point is that they won't be able to compete at worlds and these minimums mixed with the politics of the isu are discriminating against non european skating nations that are not the strongest.

In my opinion these teams up 'just missed out' are more deserving to go to worlds on the basis that they are better skaters than some of the european couples who could travel to most of the senior international b's with relatively less financial burden than non European teams and get their minimums. This was clearly evident at Europeans and four continents. There are at least 5 couples who gained entry into worlds who have a PB scores lower than the Australian couple...and the Australians can't go!

These are the cracks in the qualification system that I worried about when they were introduced and I'm disappointed that it's happening.

19 olympic sports are decided at worlds. The nebelhorn trophy in the Olympic season will be manic as it is at the start of the season with a new short dance and there will be truckloads of ice dance teams competing for the 5 remaining spots with finnsteps at the ready.

TontoK · Feb 23, 2013

Funding issues aside (because I don't know how that works), I hate to see developing skaters from "non-powers" locked out.

It deprives them of wonderful opportunities and weakens the global appeal of figure skating.

The IOC sometime grant "waivers" to developing nations to permit them to have athletes who have not met qualifying standards participate in the Games.

I know that in swimming, they compete in the very first heat. That first heat is their "Olympic Moment." They don't impact the event in a competitive sense, but the hope is that by participating in the Olympics they will promote swimming and sport in general in their home countries.

Ziggy · Feb 23, 2013

golden411 said:
Wouldn't this requirement create a new obstacle for skaters from smaller federations that do not have the resources to fund costs at Worlds?

I don't think so. Let's face it, the skaters are already paying for almost everything themselves in most cases.

The cost of a hotel room and transportation to the ice rink wouldn't be a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

But it is a huge deal to the organisers of ISU Championships when you add it all up together and this is why the Preliminary Rounds and now the Minimum Scores have been introduced.

dorispulaski · Feb 23, 2013

There are several issues, and lots of people (not just me) have brought them up before:
1. There.are.almost.no.Senior.B's.outside.Europe. There's one (new this year) in the US) but unfortunately, the US PTB decided to put it at the very beginning of the season rather than at the end.

A European couple can travel from Senior B to Senior B, working on getting their score up over a period of months, if they so desire. Asian, Australian, and North & South American couples who don't already have GP assignments, would have to fund multiple transatlantic flights to Europe to accomplish the same thing.

So part of the problem is that non-European federations aren't holding Senior B's. I'm hoping China will step up and host one, since their teams are affected.

2. The ISU lowered the TES for every discipline but dance. This is partially due to the fact a lot of European teams who simply aren't as good as the Australians, qualified at senior B's in Europe, so the ISU had already filled their quota for the SD at Worlds. However, it isn't a fair playing field at all.

3. Lest anyone fail to notice Nebelhorn Is In Europe. :bang:

:wall: so this is a non-level playing field again. The Chinese, Australian & Uzbek team will have unfair costs to participate.

As to the Uzbeks, they will be at Junior Worlds, so they have one additional chance to make the TES score.

noidont · Feb 23, 2013

The problem is that if China does host a Senior B, who would really go to compete? I believe if a field is less than 6(?) competitors the scores don't count? All the European skaters won't go because it's too easy for them to go to European Bs. US and Canada would probably rather send skaters to Europe (they don't really send that many skaters to Senior Bs anyway). That only leaves Japan, China, South Korea and Australia. I'm not sure there are 6 senior ice dance teams out of all these countries combined (given that the three JPN dance teams are probably not even based in Japan).

It is an extremely unfair situation. Although I don't feel terrible for the Chinese or Australian dance teams (frankly they are not that great to watch), I hope there is some way around that. Maybe a few selected senior Bs can strike a deal from some airline/named sponsor corporation to fund travel for non-European skaters. I believe Volvo (a Chinese company now) may have funded Zijun Li and Ziquan Zhao to compete in the Latvia Senior B. Long shot though.

dorispulaski · Feb 23, 2013

Yes, there are 6 senior dance team (2 Chinese, 3 Japanese, 1 Australian) for sure, since all were at 4CCs:

China has:

(both competed at CoC last year as well as at 4CCs)
Xintong HUANG / Xun ZHENG
Xiaoyang YU / Chen WANG

Australia has
Danielle O'Brien & Gregory Merriman

New Zealand has
Ayesha CAMPBELL / Shane SPEDEN

Japan has 3 teams, all of whom appeared at 4CC's
Cathy & Chris Reed
Emi Hirai & Marien De La Asuncion
Bryna Oi & Taiyo Mizutani

Kazakhstan had a team last year that might want to qualify for 4CC's this way (if they are still a couple)
Daryn Zhunussov & Cortney Mansour
and also had a team at the 2011 Asian winter Games

Korea
Rebecka Kim & Kiril Minov (she just turned 15)

North Korea fielded an ice dance team at the 2011 Asian Winter Games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2011_Asian_Winter_Games#Ice_dancing

The Uzbeks
Anna Nagornyuk & Viktor Kovalenko

SamuraiKike · Feb 23, 2013

The KAZ teams are split. They had a Junior team at the JGP this season but I believed they split aswell.

The JPN teams are all based in US/Europe and the UZB and KOR team train Im russia so there is a logistic lack of demand for Senior B dance competitions in Asia Im afraid.

However CHina has tons of dance teams so they could just get to invite at least 3 teams from other countries and get the ISU sanctioned status.

A.H.Black · Feb 23, 2013

I wish they had a minimum segment score instead of a minimum technical score. The quality of a couple's skating should not be solely measured by their technical score only. The idea of using 4CC/Europeans as a way to qualify to the world championships seems like a more sensible option.

I like this idea. I would go on to say the minimums should be such that they are almost a "formality" for most teams throughout the world. My vision is it should be something like passing your senior tests (in the U.S.) to get to senior level.

I'm assuming the minimums are supposed to be a standard so teams that are thrown together (who really can't skate very well) are not allowed at a World Championships. That requirement should not exclude teams/skaters that are doing the best they can to train, where they have limited funding, limited coaching and limited ice along with other adverse conditions.

On the other hand - and this is a separate argument - I have always thought countries with deep talent pools should not be limited to 3 entries (at least at Worlds). I've always favored some sort of "Worlds qualifying open" type of competition where anyone who didn't get chosen to their country's team could have an opportunity to qualify to an "open" entry. If Japan ends up with 8 ladies at Worlds - great. I think it would make the World Championships more of a true representation of the best of the World while still allowing skaters from developing countries to compete.

chuckm · Feb 23, 2013

I can just see it now---8 Japanese ladies and 8 Russian ladies at Worlds, pretty much guaranteeing that no other federation will ever get more than one entry each. :rolleye:

A.H.Black · Feb 23, 2013

chuckm said:
I can just see it now---8 Japanese ladies and 8 Russian ladies at Worlds, pretty much guaranteeing that no other federation will ever get more than one entry each.

Perhaps it could be the "open" entries don't count toward the country quotas. It just seems like World Championships for individual sports should include that best in the world - all the best in the world.

chuckm · Feb 23, 2013

And you expect the ISU to pay for all these 'extra' entries? And there would have to be still another competition to determine who the 'open' entries are.

As it is, the ISU is trying to cut back on the numbers for the ISU Championships.

A.H.Black · Feb 23, 2013

chuckm said:
And you expect the ISU to pay for all these 'extra' entries? And there would have to be still another competition to determine who the 'open' entries are.

As it is, the ISU is trying to cut back on the numbers for the ISU Championships.

I have no idea how the logistics would/could be managed. I'm only proposing an idea - and a dream.

I still like the original posters proposal for minimum scores.

chuckm · Feb 23, 2013

There IS no way to move your proposal from fantasy to reality. For one thing, it would have to be voted on by all the members of the ISU, and the smaller federations would block any attempt to further limit their participation at Worlds.

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 23, 2013

golden411 said:
Wouldn't this requirement create a new obstacle for skaters from smaller federations that do not have the resources to fund costs at Worlds?

The only other option would be to go back to preliminaries, which many smaller federations voted to scrap.

Possum Glider · Feb 24, 2013

noidont said:
It is an extremely unfair situation. Although I don't feel terrible for the Chinese or Australian dance teams (frankly they are not that great to watch), I hope there is some way around that. Maybe a few selected senior Bs can strike a deal from some airline/named sponsor corporation to fund travel for non-European skaters. I believe Volvo (a Chinese company now) may have funded Zijun Li and Ziquan Zhao to compete in the Latvia Senior B. Long shot though.

Thanks for the vote of confidence- the Australians have worked extremely hard and have improved greatly and their programs this season have evolved well and the feedback at 4CC was all positive.

The Australians receive no more then a maximum of $4000 funding each year from their national federation- this is to assist with their competition costs for the whole season. The years where there was a preliminary round they paid their own accommodation costs if they did not progress through. So if they had to self fund this year to be there I'm sure they would- but would that mean any teams they beat would have to refund their costs.

It would be great if they could attract sponsorship but that won't happen in Australia but it is pointless them going to multiple competitions where they don't have the weight of the officials to organize block judging and deals with technical panels to carry skaters to the qualifying mark.

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2013

The Australians have improved so much over the last two years; that they have managed this with virtually no in-country support is truly impressive.

Ziggy · Feb 24, 2013

noidont said:
The problem is that if China does host a Senior B, who would really go to compete? I believe if a field is less than 6(?) competitors the scores don't count? All the European skaters won't go because it's too easy for them to go to European Bs. US and Canada would probably rather send skaters to Europe (they don't really send that many skaters to Senior Bs anyway). That only leaves Japan, China, South Korea and Australia. I'm not sure there are 6 senior ice dance teams out of all these countries combined (given that the three JPN dance teams are probably not even based in Japan).

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you need at least 4 (?) skaters from at least 4 (?) different countries in order for the competition to count for ISU Rankings? Something like this, I don't remember the exact numbers now.

As far as minimum scores go, it should always count.

A.H.Black said:
Perhaps it could be the "open" entries don't count toward the country quotas. It just seems like World Championships for individual sports should include that best in the world - all the best in the world.

Great way to kill off skating in most developing countries and make it even more restricted to US/Canada/China/Japan.

dorispulaski said:
The Australians have improved so much over the last two years; that they have managed this with virtually no in-country support is truly impressive.

And they have come really close to reaching the SD score a number of times as well.

I find it really upsetting that they aren't able to compete at Worlds. They definitely deserved it.

Victims of techincal minimums fall through the cracks

GF2445

Ziggy

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

GF2445

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Ziggy

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

noidont

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

SamuraiKike

A.H.Black

chuckm

A.H.Black

chuckm

A.H.Black

chuckm

ImaginaryPogue

Possum Glider

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Ziggy

Similar threads

Connect with us