Victims of techincal minimums fall through the cracks

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2013

Yes, I feel the same about it. And the fact that the scores were lowered for all three of the other disciplines but dance annoys me too, especially when the Australians were only 0.5 points below the TES minimum for the SD, and had the minimum for the FD multiple times. I feel like there were almost systematically,( and perhaps corruptly) excluded. Why couldn't the ISU have lowered the SD to 28 from 29? Would that have been so big a stretch?

SamuraiKike · Feb 24, 2013

What I think is ironically sad is that when the minimuns scores were announced I found the numbers for Dance to be the most ridiculously high (29 for a SD means a 55-60 points total score which you only tend to see on high elite teams) and yet it was the only category that managed to fill an ISU field (25 teams) before the deadline for adjustment and this was basically the main reason why they remained unchanged whitle all the other categories were lowered. This was caused of course by more than generous-scoring Senior B events which benefited some very low level teams who were lucky to participate in them (FIN, BLR and POL teams specially).In that sense the original post has a very legitimate point. 4CC feds were screwed. Sad but true.

Another thing to note is that Ice dance has expanded a lot in the last few years. It deserves an scheduled field as large as single skaters IMO. The SD at worlds is gonna be nail biting . Im afraid the ESP, TUR and SVK teams to name a few of my personal faves are not going to make it to the FD.

Ziggy · Feb 24, 2013

SamuraiKike said:
Another thing to note is that Ice dance has expanded a lot in the last few years. It deserves an scheduled field as large as single skaters IMO. The SD at worlds is gonna be nail biting . Im afraid the ESP, TUR and SVK teams to name a few of my personal faves are not going to make it to the FD.

That is a very important point. Ice Dance development has been extremely successful but the ISU is not increasing opportunities and access for the teams.

Only 20 make it to FD, only 8 at GP events.

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2013

It is worth remembering that at Skate Canada, the SD TES requirement was so high a bar to jump that Virtue & Moir, the reigning World Champions, did not achieve it.

And yet at Senior B's, teams that couldn't make the FD last year at Worlds made it.

Clearly, tech judging of SD's this year have been highly inconsistent.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2012/SEG007.HTM

(the guideline is 29.00)

In fact, the only team of the 8 at SC 2012 to achieve the minimum TES was Capellini & Lanotte.

Pl. Name Nation TSS
= TES
+ PCS
+ SS TR PE CC IT Ded.
- StN.
1 Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR CAN 65.09 27.72 37.37 9.32 9.14 9.25 9.46 9.46 0.00 #8
2 Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE ITA 65.08 32.44 32.64 8.21 7.82 8.21 8.25 8.25 0.00 #7
3 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Ilia TKACHENKO RUS 55.80 26.50 29.30 7.46 7.11 7.39 7.36 7.29 0.00 #5
4 Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA 54.84 26.50 28.34 7.18 6.75 7.14 7.11 7.18 0.00 #4
5 Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER CAN 53.71 27.07 26.64 6.68 6.43 6.71 6.82 6.64 0.00 #1
6 Pernelle CARRON / Lloyd JONES FRA 51.67 23.57 28.10 7.04 6.89 6.89 7.29 7.00 0.00 #6
7 Julia ZLOBINA / Alexei SITNIKOV AZE 50.92 23.93 26.99 6.79 6.50 6.64 6.93 6.82 0.00 #2
8 Kharis RALPH / Asher HILL CAN 50.00 24.14 25.86 6.43 6.25 6.57 6.50 6.54 0.00 #3

This is such craziness that something clearly has to be done about it.

And yes, 4CC's teams got screwed, just as one might expect.

Buttercup · Feb 24, 2013

I think the minimum scores in dance should have been adjusted as were those in the other disciplines. That said:

1. Nobody is stopping non-European federations from holding senior Bs. It's not like many of the countries in which senior Bs are held these days are huge skating powerhouses.
2. A team being from a European country does not mean they train in Europe and have easy access to senior Bs.
3. A team being from a non-European country does not mean that they train in their home country or region.

Nagornyuk/Kovalenko train in Moscow, so senior Bs are relatively accessible to them. OTOH, I can think of at least three European teams that qualified via senior Bs and are NA-based: Reed and Vasili Rogov (ISR - train in NJ), Hurtado and Diaz (ESP, train in Montreal), and Agafonova and Uçar (TUR, train in the Northeast US). I doubt the latter have that much funding.

Yes, it sucks that O'Brien and Merriman won't get to go to Worlds. I agree that if the threshold had been set correctly, this would not have happened, and they deserve the opportunity. But I really don't think anyone set out to systemically deny them a place at Worlds; who would have cared enough to bother screwing over a lower-ranked team? I think often times what's attributed to conspiracies should really be attributed to stupidity and short-sighted behavior by the ISU.

Other than O/M and the Chinese team (who have regressed this season in terms of placement) are there any other teams that belong at Worlds but didn't make it?

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2013

I don't think that the fact that only 2 teams are getting really screwed is an argument in favor of what they've done this year with the short dance judging. And there may be more; I just haven't necessarily noticed them as really badly screwed.

Buttercup · Feb 24, 2013

dorispulaski said:
I don't think that the fact that only 2 teams are getting really screwed is an argument in favor of what they've done this year with the short dance judging.

Did I suggest that it was? But how were O/M in worse shape than team like H/D and A/U, who also train in North America, who also don't get GPs, who are also from smaller federations, and yet did manage to get the qualifying score? O/M have been together much longer than either of those teams, and have way more experience (I was surprised to see just how long and how much). They competed at five senior Bs this season, and still couldn't get the minimum. I feel bad for them, but it's not like the were lacking for opportunities compared to others.

Nonetheless, I agree that the minimum scoring issue is one that needs to be addressed, that the ISU needs to help develop skating in more countries, and that there is no reason not to expand to field just a bit. But the problem that we have at the moment is not as pervasive as has been suggested here, and is likely not some kind of conspiracy against non-Europeans.

Ziggy · Feb 24, 2013

Buttercup said:
1. Nobody is stopping non-European federations from holding senior Bs. It's not like many of the countries in which senior Bs are held these days are huge skating powerhouses.

Honestly. Poland, Estonia, Slovakia, Croatia and Latvia are capable of organising International Competitions but USA, Canada, China and Japan aren't? :rolleye:

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2013

Ziggy, I don't understand it. However, some of it has to do with who gets the money from the event.

I've watched the European Senior B's and a lot of them have lower level competitions running as part of one big event.

There are a lot of summer club competitions in the US, some of them with enough skaters from other countries that there could be a Senior B run there (for example, Liberty, in Pa, for singles & pairs, and Lake Placid IDC for dance).

However, there is clearly a problem that the clubs that run these events do not want a Senior B to be part of the event.

Lake Placid not only has international skaters; it has international judges already.

In fact, when the US started a senior B, it was in Utah; not one of the bigger club competitions.

Clearly, there are reasons; and I think someone listed them out last year for us; but they made so little sense to me that I can't remember them.

Skate Detroit would be another place where a Senior B could be run.

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 24, 2013

Ziggy said:
Honestly. Poland, Estonia, Slovakia, Croatia and Latvia are capable of organising International Competitions but USA, Canada, China and Japan aren't?

Japan: doesn't want to. It sends it's skaters to all sorts of senior B all the time.

Canada: actually was going to, but chose not to at the last minute. Really should consider doing so.

USA: Does. Unless you believe it should run two.

China: What's a senior B anyway?

Buttercup · Feb 25, 2013

ImaginaryPogue said:
Canada: actually was going to, but chose not to at the last minute. Really should consider doing so.

USA: Does. Unless you believe it should run two.

If Germany can have three (I think) senior Bs (Nebelhorn, NRW, Bavarian Open), and Poland (Warsaw Cup, Nestle Cup) Slovakia (Ondrej Nepela, New Year's Cup) Austria (Ice Challenge Graz, Hellmut Siebt Memorial) and Italy (Merano Cup, Gardena Spring Trophy) two apiece, why can't the US have two? And while none of these countries has a GP, they often host JGPs as well as these events. Germany and Slovakia did this season, and Croatia hosted Euros and a JGP, and still managed two senior Bs (Golden Bear and Golden Spin).

I still don't understand why Canada didn't go ahead with - what was it, Thornhill?

Clear you inbox, BTW

dorispulaski · Feb 25, 2013

I would like to understand why Canada ruled against a Senior B as well.

And yes, there should be at least one post Nationals senior B in North America. Right now, there is just one (Salt Lake), and it is at the start of the season.

Ziggy · Feb 25, 2013

ImaginaryPogue said:
USA: Does. Unless you believe it should run two.

It had a very limited amount of entries allowed and USFS has only entered 2 of its own skaters!!! I mean I did a double take when I saw that. Are they completely mad?

This was an opportunity for their skaters to:
- earn ISU minimum scores
- earn ISU ranking points
- get feedback from an international technical and judging panel
- get themselves out there and get known by international judges
- earn international competition experience

And they only send 2 skaters?

dorispulaski said:
Clearly, there are reasons; and I think someone listed them out last year for us; but they made so little sense to me that I can't remember them.

The reasons are probably financial.

If you organise an ISU-sanctioned international event, you have to have at least 5 judges from different countries plus 3 technical panelists (from diff countries as well I think?). And you have to pay all of their expenses. In USA and Canada's case it means paying for transatlantic flights. You also have to pay for competition and practice ice time.

Still if Eastern European countries which are far far poorer than US/Canada/Japan and whose Figure Skating Federations have much more limited budgets are able to regularly organise big international events, I cannot understand why the biggest, richest federations aren't.

Polish Figure Skating Federation's budget is tiny but they are still able to hold two large international events every year. Warsaw Cup is sponsored by the city of Warsaw, Mentor Nestle Nesquik Cup is sponsored by Mentor (an insurance company) and Nestle.

I guess it is much cheaper to fly the judges in, if you can get them from neighbouring countries.

dorispulaski · Feb 25, 2013

Salt Lake City is not a location that is convenient to very many competitors. I thought it was a lousy choice for a Senior B, but you have to give the local club kudos for at least getting something done.

dorispulaski · Feb 25, 2013

Moon, Welcome to Golden Skate!

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 25, 2013

Ziggy said:
It had a very limited amount of entries allowed and USFS has only entered 2 of its own skaters!!!

Which is wierd, but they entered three dancers, four men and three pairs. They only sent two ladies.

Ziggy, given how poorly Skate Canada actually uses senior Bs for it's skaters, it's not all that surprising it doesn't run it's own. Just disappointing.

Ziggy · Feb 25, 2013

moon said:
There must be potential for profit in these competitions. For example, in Europe the difference between what the the competitors are charged and what the hotel receives would go to the host nation.

In North America the system is more transparent are there is less opportunity to make a profit.

Please, there is nothing not transparent about it. When organising a competition, you have to sort out everything, including transportation to and from the hotel. It's the same as paying a travel company who arranges everything for you. And then there's also ice time and the costs of all the officials. An entry fee is not going to cover all of this and unless you find a sponsor, you will be running on a loss.

Ziggy · Feb 25, 2013

Yes, skaters pay their own accommodation costs. And again, I don't see anything wrong with taking a cut from them, if you undertake a huge job of organising an event. Obviously you are going to try to recover the costs.

Lady Lorna · Feb 27, 2013

Just noticed and read this thread with interest. While the point regarding the difficulty non-European skaters may have in attending Senior Bs is valid, it is only fair to point out that the Australian team trains in the US and attended at least 5 Senior Bs as well as Four Continents this season--meaning that the issue was clearly not access. Similarly situated teams such as Tobias/Stagnunias, Plutowska/Gerber, Heekin-Canedy/Dun, Reed/Reed, Reed/Rogov, and Agafonova/Ucar (until they moved to Moscow) have shared the same constraints and qualified for Worlds. I expect the Australians will continue to improve and that we will see them at Worlds next year--and possibly the Olympics.

Buttercup · Feb 27, 2013

dorispulaski said:
As to the Uzbeks, they will be at Junior Worlds, so they have one additional chance to make the TES score.

Unfortunately they did not get the 29 TES that they needed today, missing by less than a point. JW is thus their final event for this season. I do hope they'll have better luck next season. Their high-drama race to make it to the qualifying round last year (complete with a worried Misha Ge live-tweeting from the rink) was quite memorable indeed and I'm sorry they won't get the chance to have a more normal Worlds experience this year.

Victims of techincal minimums fall through the cracks

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

SamuraiKike

Ziggy

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Buttercup

dorispulaski

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Buttercup

Ziggy

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

ImaginaryPogue

Buttercup

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Ziggy

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

ImaginaryPogue

Ziggy

Ziggy

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Buttercup

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