Victims of techincal minimums fall through the cracks

[Buttercup]

Canada: actually was going to, but chose not to at the last minute. Really should consider doing so.

USA: Does. Unless you believe it should run two.

If Germany can have three (I think) senior Bs (Nebelhorn, NRW, Bavarian Open), and Poland (Warsaw Cup, Nestle Cup) Slovakia (Ondrej Nepela, New Year's Cup) Austria (Ice Challenge Graz, Hellmut Siebt Memorial) and Italy (Merano Cup, Gardena Spring Trophy) two apiece, why can't the US have two? And while none of these countries has a GP, they often host JGPs as well as these events. Germany and Slovakia did this season, and Croatia hosted Euros and a JGP, and still managed two senior Bs (Golden Bear and Golden Spin).

I still don't understand why Canada didn't go ahead with - what was it, Thornhill?

Clear you inbox, BTW

[dorispulaski]

I would like to understand why Canada ruled against a Senior B as well.

And yes, there should be at least one post Nationals senior B in North America. Right now, there is just one (Salt Lake), and it is at the start of the season.

[Ziggy]

USA: Does. Unless you believe it should run two.

It had a very limited amount of entries allowed and USFS has only entered 2 of its own skaters!!! I mean I did a double take when I saw that. Are they completely mad?

This was an opportunity for their skaters to:
- earn ISU minimum scores
- earn ISU ranking points
- get feedback from an international technical and judging panel
- get themselves out there and get known by international judges
- earn international competition experience

And they only send 2 skaters?

Clearly, there are reasons; and I think someone listed them out last year for us; but they made so little sense to me that I can't remember them.

The reasons are probably financial.

If you organise an ISU-sanctioned international event, you have to have at least 5 judges from different countries plus 3 technical panelists (from diff countries as well I think?). And you have to pay all of their expenses. In USA and Canada's case it means paying for transatlantic flights. You also have to pay for competition and practice ice time.

Still if Eastern European countries which are far far poorer than US/Canada/Japan and whose Figure Skating Federations have much more limited budgets are able to regularly organise big international events, I cannot understand why the biggest, richest federations aren't.

Polish Figure Skating Federation's budget is tiny but they are still able to hold two large international events every year. Warsaw Cup is sponsored by the city of Warsaw, Mentor Nestle Nesquik Cup is sponsored by Mentor (an insurance company) and Nestle.

I guess it is much cheaper to fly the judges in, if you can get them from neighbouring countries.

[dorispulaski]

Salt Lake City is not a location that is convenient to very many competitors. I thought it was a lousy choice for a Senior B, but you have to give the local club kudos for at least getting something done.

[moon]

There must be potential for profit in these competitions. For example, in Europe the difference between what the the competitors are charged and what the hotel receives would go to the host nation. This is not wrong or unusual in sport it is just the way it is. You will notice many smaller, poorer European nations are happy to host JGP, senior B. In North America the system is more transparent are there is less opportunity to make a profit.

[dorispulaski]

Moon, Welcome to Golden Skate!

[ImaginaryPogue]

It had a very limited amount of entries allowed and USFS has only entered 2 of its own skaters!!!

Which is wierd, but they entered three dancers, four men and three pairs. They only sent two ladies.

Ziggy, given how poorly Skate Canada actually uses senior Bs for it's skaters, it's not all that surprising it doesn't run it's own. Just disappointing.

[Ziggy]

There must be potential for profit in these competitions. For example, in Europe the difference between what the the competitors are charged and what the hotel receives would go to the host nation.

In North America the system is more transparent are there is less opportunity to make a profit.

Please, there is nothing not transparent about it. When organising a competition, you have to sort out everything, including transportation to and from the hotel. It's the same as paying a travel company who arranges everything for you. And then there's also ice time and the costs of all the officials. An entry fee is not going to cover all of this and unless you find a sponsor, you will be running on a loss.

[moon]

I am well aware. What I was trying to say and perhaps did not explain well because I was concerned about being unkind was that some European nations traditionally take a MUCH larger cut and therefore can make a much larger profit. This is accomplished in many ways that may be frowned upon by some and would not be allowed in other countries. There is a good reason that certain countries continue to hold these competitions. They make money! I am not speaking of entry fees. Not all costs are coverered at jgp and senior b by the host. Most often the guests are paying for their hotels and food. Grand Prix are a different story.

[Ziggy]

Yes, skaters pay their own accommodation costs. And again, I don't see anything wrong with taking a cut from them, if you undertake a huge job of organising an event. Obviously you are going to try to recover the costs.

[Lady Lorna]

Just noticed and read this thread with interest. While the point regarding the difficulty non-European skaters may have in attending Senior Bs is valid, it is only fair to point out that the Australian team trains in the US and attended at least 5 Senior Bs as well as Four Continents this season--meaning that the issue was clearly not access. Similarly situated teams such as Tobias/Stagnunias, Plutowska/Gerber, Heekin-Canedy/Dun, Reed/Reed, Reed/Rogov, and Agafonova/Ucar (until they moved to Moscow) have shared the same constraints and qualified for Worlds. I expect the Australians will continue to improve and that we will see them at Worlds next year--and possibly the Olympics.

[moon]

Please correct me if I am wrong about the mentioned teams but I would expect that their federations would allow them to go to as many competitions as they like as long as they paid their own way. Many of these teams just kept competing until they found a tech panel that gave them the minimum score. From what I know in Canada and US the federations do not allow their skaters to attend senior B unless they are chosen and the federation does pay for some of the costs. The skaters could not attend more even if they wanted to pay. I would think that if North American skaters were allowed to go to any competition they wanted to and pay for it we would see many more at European Senior b.

[Buttercup]

As to the Uzbeks, they will be at Junior Worlds, so they have one additional chance to make the TES score.

Unfortunately they did not get the 29 TES that they needed today, missing by less than a point. JW is thus their final event for this season. I do hope they'll have better luck next season. Their high-drama race to make it to the qualifying round last year (complete with a worried Misha Ge live-tweeting from the rink) was quite memorable indeed and I'm sorry they won't get the chance to have a more normal Worlds experience this year.

[Lady Lorna]

Based upon my limited knowledge, I would not assume that any of the teams I mentioned have the authority to determine which or how many competitions they attend. Nor would I make any assumptions regarding which federations pay for what. I do know that some of those teams had already achieved the minimums last season. They were not chasing after technical panels this season.

[moon]

I did not mean the skaters have the authority to choose. Of course they would need permission and aproval. Obviously all nations have different rules regarding how many skaters they are willing to send to events. You do not see US sending a skater to 5 different senior b. We are talking about the TES. This year it was needed for some to go to many senior b to get the TES. In the past it was not needed to go to so many. This is NOT the skaters fault. The problem is consistency of calling the levels that were given at each event was not good. It was awful. These teams and skaters suffered. I do not know why such a important mark should be decided at a senior b. SB are not given at senior b because of that. For this reason i do not think there should be a minimum TES unless it can be fairly given.