Menshov Snubbed for Worlds
- Thread starter gsk8
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So does the federation care to show us the results of the competition where Kovtun posted a higher score than Menshov this season? Keep looking...you might be here a while.
Also, "National pretenders"? What a freaking jerk. May I remind him that Kovtun was BEATEN at Nationals by Voronov, Menshov, AND Gachinski. Voronov and Menshov, understandable, but losing to Gachinski when Gachinski is having the worst season of his life really doesn't say much.
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I think "pretenders" is a translation bobble. They are using it in the old-fashioned sense of "pretender to the throne," meaning "claimant" or "aspirant."
What I don't like about it is that it makes international figure skating seem like a sport played by national federation bosses instead of by athletes.
What I don't like about it is that it makes international figure skating seem like a sport played by national federation bosses instead of by athletes.
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Age discrimination for sure. What else could it be? :sarcasm:
There are no guarantees that either skater will secure 2 spots for next season.
There are no guarantees that either skater will secure 2 spots for next season.
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Or the Russian Federation could actually pick a skater regardless of age just on form...but that would be too much like common sense, wouldn't it?
Kovtun is good. But he's young. There's nothing to say that he won't crumble under the pressure. And then no doubt if he fails it'll be another Gachinski all over again, reams of criticisms from his own fed and a steamrollering in the Russian press, public dumping, claims he should quit or retire...the sort of stuff that makes me wonder why I bother with the Russian skaters. (Except, you know, they're amazing...)
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Kovtun has won Jr GPF title this season. He has a pretty good chance to win another big title; the junior championship. Why skip it now?
I can understand if he gets compete both at Junior Wolrds then at Senior Worlds, though I imagine and agree must be very hard to compete at two championships back to back. But compete only at Senior Worlds by skipping Jr Worlds is i don't understand...
Kovtun is still very young. He has plenty of time to flourish himself at the senior circuit...Moving into senior after winning the junior title does just no harm, but lost of benefits, right? While I love how he has improved every aspects of his skating since I first saw him live at 2012 World Team trophy, why such a rush this young and promising skater? I have to agree with karne saying 'another Gachinski all over again...cause I still believe that Artur should have stayed in the junior circuit one more season after winning 2010 Jr Bronze medal, in order to win the junior title in 2011 then to move to the senior. It's just very sad to see him now struggle so much. :no: He must have not been 'fully' ready to compete at the senior level, mentally especillay I would say, even though he did win the bronze medal at 2011 Worlds at his first senior season.
As for Kovtun over Menshov, I am still :disapp:
I can understand if he gets compete both at Junior Wolrds then at Senior Worlds, though I imagine and agree must be very hard to compete at two championships back to back. But compete only at Senior Worlds by skipping Jr Worlds is i don't understand...
Kovtun is still very young. He has plenty of time to flourish himself at the senior circuit...Moving into senior after winning the junior title does just no harm, but lost of benefits, right? While I love how he has improved every aspects of his skating since I first saw him live at 2012 World Team trophy, why such a rush this young and promising skater? I have to agree with karne saying 'another Gachinski all over again...cause I still believe that Artur should have stayed in the junior circuit one more season after winning 2010 Jr Bronze medal, in order to win the junior title in 2011 then to move to the senior. It's just very sad to see him now struggle so much. :no: He must have not been 'fully' ready to compete at the senior level, mentally especillay I would say, even though he did win the bronze medal at 2011 Worlds at his first senior season.
As for Kovtun over Menshov, I am still :disapp:
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I have to disagree with you there. I believe Artur was perfectly ready for Seniors when he started; his first Senior season was very respectable and finished with that bronze. His second Senior season was also reasonable, he came on song mid-season when he won silver at Russian Nats and then Euros. Whatever happened at Worlds was obviously unexpected but the amount of blame heaped on him (especially in comparison to Voronov who pretty well got away with it scot-free!) for the loss of the two spots was inexcusable (considering Artur was the reason they had two spots in the first place). He was publicly berated by his own federation. Even Plushenko rebuked him publicly. I imagine that might have been what did his head in.
And that's my fear for Kovtun. If he doesn't get the two spots, I bet he'll be subject to the same trial by fire that Gachinski was. Though maybe not, since he is a Tarasova student.
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BTW, Russia is not alone in this sort of activity.
The USA sent Dornbush to senior Worlds, when Dornbush finished second in Seniors at US nationals to Ryan Bradley. He had won the JGPF, and was positioned to win or medal at Jr. Worlds, but was sent to Sr. Worlds instead. He skated a bit scratchily, but without falling at Sr. Worlds, and finished top 10, a respectable debut. Likewise, Ross Miner, who finished third, also skated well, and finished one place behind Richard. And the result was that they did not qualify for 3 spots for the following year, since Bradley did not skate well, but retired. Both Ross & Ricky came in for a lot of negative press, despite skating as well as they could have at Worlds. Neither was getting an rep points from the judges.
I don't think that sending Ricky to Senior Worlds was the right decision for the US. I don't think it particularly helped his career either. Guys that skate the fall JGP as juniors should go to Jr. Worlds unless they win the Senior championship outright; it's too much of a shock of a way to start their Senior careers. And then there's the fact that their Senior LP is a bit different (and longer) than the junior LP they have been practicing.
The USA sent Dornbush to senior Worlds, when Dornbush finished second in Seniors at US nationals to Ryan Bradley. He had won the JGPF, and was positioned to win or medal at Jr. Worlds, but was sent to Sr. Worlds instead. He skated a bit scratchily, but without falling at Sr. Worlds, and finished top 10, a respectable debut. Likewise, Ross Miner, who finished third, also skated well, and finished one place behind Richard. And the result was that they did not qualify for 3 spots for the following year, since Bradley did not skate well, but retired. Both Ross & Ricky came in for a lot of negative press, despite skating as well as they could have at Worlds. Neither was getting an rep points from the judges.
I don't think that sending Ricky to Senior Worlds was the right decision for the US. I don't think it particularly helped his career either. Guys that skate the fall JGP as juniors should go to Jr. Worlds unless they win the Senior championship outright; it's too much of a shock of a way to start their Senior careers. And then there's the fact that their Senior LP is a bit different (and longer) than the junior LP they have been practicing.
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Menshov is an amazing skater and I agree...this smells like ageism. Russia won't send a guy that is almost as old as Plushenko, but doesn't have his history. I think it is a bad decision, and I am really sad for Menshov - that guy is great and well, if Russia doesn't see it, bad luck for them. I kind of hope their loose their precious spot for Sochi. It's their own fault really.
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The USA had three spots. They sent their first, second, and third placers at Nationals.
Russia had one spot. They are sending their fifth place at Nationals.
I don't think the Russia Federation is making a mistake - they aren't in a great position with respect to their men.
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Yes, that is what the US did. However, they do have a review, and could have chosen to send Dornbush (since he was not the champion) to Jr. Worlds & Abbott (who was in 4th, and had won the SP at Nationals) to Sr. Worlds, and I think things might have turned out better for all concerned.
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While I agree with this, and feel all the hate on Artur was wrong, I think some of the outcome had to do with what was put out on the ice. Menshov actually skated pretty well at Worlds last year - at least jump wise. No one expected him to be the top placing Russian at the event, his low PCS were somewhat expected, and the fact that he wound up in 17th place speaks more to the depth of the field rather than his failure to deliver at the Worlds. Gatchinski on the other hand had just placed 2nd at Euros and had won a medal at Worlds the year before - everyone knew he had the goods to score and place well and would if he delivered. Then he didn't deliver and the score and placement were surprisingly bad. So it just sort of worked out that the guy people were depending on to keep 2 or maybe even get 3 spots for Russia disappointed. It's hard to blame Voronov with the reason that he's simply not that great of a skater on the World stage. He could have been perfect and still likely wouldn't have cracked the top 10, or maybe would have just barely. But Artur had the past results, he's the stronger skater in the situation, his ability and competitive resume were what people expected to carry the Russian team and he wound up placing below his teammate. It's unfortunate that Gatchinski gets labeled as a headcase and gets so much pressure and trash talked heaped on him, but really it's the reality of being young and talented and having had good international results and now not being able to perform to his high ability level consistently. There's time for him to get it back together, but unfortunately when you achieve such great results so quickly at such a young age, people get excited and set really high expectations...
And now they're doing the same thing to kovtun but at a pre Olympics worlds. Lol it's almost like the system now because men are so weak is just to heap as much pressure on a skater as is humanly possible and if they withstand it send them out before they crack under it!
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Well let's see how Kovtun does first. If he holds up under the pressure, then, well, maybe he IS the new star. And even if he makes mistakes, he can still become a star in the future. His ascent just this season has been pretty incredible already.
he could be a star in the future but based on how he skates sochi 2014 olympics may not be in order. But even if he did well and two spots happened he would have to do well in 2014 euros. I was going to say russian nationals but LOL russian nationals are just one of many measures.
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Perhaps, but I think of poor NNN who never got a chance to skate at Worlds because the one time she placed high enough, she wasn't age eligible. If Ricky never reached that level again, it would have been great to have had the opportunity to skate at Worlds once, having earned the spot. Ricky will have plenty more opportunities to skate at Worlds, but we thought the same about NNN in 1999.
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It's an interesting question. Certainly members of the Russian federation would probably be well advised not to make comments indicating that Kovtun was chosen over Menshov because of age.
However, considering that Plushenko is older than Menshov, the Russian fed is in better position than most feds to make a defense against ageism.
However, considering that Plushenko is older than Menshov, the Russian fed is in better position than most feds to make a defense against ageism.
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