Jenny Kirk interviews Tim Goebel | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Jenny Kirk interviews Tim Goebel

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Top coaches for decades received percentages of the skater's earnings when they turned pro, so this was nothing new. Danny Kwan, Michelle's dad, had conversations with Frank, some about $$$ and some about control.

I think we forget this aspect of the coach-pupil relationship when we try to explain, for example, why someone as talented as Miki Ando has problems finding a coach or perhaps why Yuna and Orser parted ways. It also makes more sense why athletes would seek out politically-connected coaches, because the coaches are also incentivized to help the skater place high to earn endorsements, etc.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I think we forget this aspect of the coach-pupil relationship when we try to explain, for example, why someone as talented as Miki Ando has problems finding a coach or perhaps why Yuna and Orser parted ways. It also makes more sense why athletes would seek out politically-connected coaches, because the coaches are also incentivized to help the skater place high to earn endorsements, etc.

It’s nothing but indentured labor. I wonder if this issue also played a part in Rafael and Mao’s separation?

I think gymnastics is a comparable sports to figure skating. I wonder if gymnastics coaches force their athletes to legally enslave themselves in exchange for being taught the secrets of the craft.

I wonder if this is common practice only in North America? And I also wonder if this practice will soon die out, because the pro scene is dead, and it seems that many skaters leave amateur skating with bodies that are often too broken up for them to continue skating in shows anyway.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
It’s nothing but indentured labor. I wonder if this issue also played a part in Rafael and Mao’s separation?

I think gymnastics is a comparable sports to figure skating. I wonder if gymnastics coaches force their athletes to legally enslave themselves in exchange for being taught the secrets of the craft.

I think it's fair, only because skaters are not forced to take on any particular coach. A top tier coach may think that the compensation is inadequate without a percentage of the skater's earnings from other sources. Why shouldn't he/she be allowed to ask for that? The athlete can always say "no" and seek another coach.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
It’s nothing but indentured labor. I wonder if this issue also played a part in Rafael and Mao’s separation?

I think gymnastics is a comparable sports to figure skating. I wonder if gymnastics coaches force their athletes to legally enslave themselves in exchange for being taught the secrets of the craft.

I wonder if this is common practice only in North America? And I also wonder if this practice will soon die out, because the pro scene is dead, and it seems that many skaters leave amateur skating with bodies that are often too broken up for them to continue skating in shows anyway.

I think saying it is "indentured labor" is a bit extreme. Nor am I aware that this is the sole reason for anyone's break up in the coach/student relationship. I also doubt if this practice is continued especially with less and less Pro events available to skaters these days. Coaches felt at that time that the skater's success was largely due to their time/investment in helping to guide and create Olympic/World champions. Coaches often acted as the skater's agent during that time. Nowadays, skaters have professional agents.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Just an idle observation: If any coach got a promise out of Michelle that she would pay him a portion of her pro earnings, that coach must have gotten a nasty surprise when Michelle hopped straight over to college and grad school.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
The athlete can always say "no" and seek another coach.

Well, no. Skaters don’t really have a choice do they? Otherwise, Miki, for example, shouldn’t have any trouble finding a coach.

Or rather, it’s probably more accurate to say that skaters don’t have a choice that they should have. Either agree to the practice of indenturing themselves to famous coaches who possess the necessary technical and political skills set, or choose to foreclose your career, because without such a coach, you will develop ‘bad’ technique and/or injure yourself, and even if you miraculously acquire ‘textbook’ technique and stay healthy enough to compete, you don’t have the political backing to get the GOE and PCS that you might deserve, and so your chances of landing on the podium is likely to be less than what it would be with a famous coach. :rolleye:

It must be that there have been and are amazing natural figure skating talents in America who chose/choose not to embark on a path of seeking Olympic glory because they see what the deal is and they choose to stop figure skating and start spending that time educating themselves in other careers.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Just an idle observation: If any coach got a promise out of Michelle that she would pay him a portion of her pro earnings, that coach must have gotten a nasty surprise when Michelle hopped straight over to college and grad school.

Michelle must have gotten endorsements/commercials. Any kind of income that was related to the fame she got from being a figure skater would potentially end up in the coaches’ pocket, right? With someone as famous as Michelle, she didn’t necessary have to turn pro to earn an income from her figure skating career.
 

skatingfan4ever

"Our blade takes us in the most amazing places."
Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Country
United-States
Holy Moly! What a marvelously candid interview.

Very interesting about how the top coaches demand not only a percentage of the skater's earnings form all sources, but also that even after they part company the coach still gets a cut of future earnings. There were always rumors, none substanmtiated by the principals, that this was what lay behind the split between Frank and Michelle. Michelle was in line to make millions off the Olympics and Frank wanted too much of it. (I don't know whether this is true or not, but there was a lot of speculation at the time.)

Tim feels that the powers that be in USFS essentially predetermine who is going to win and place well at Nationals. But he saved his worst for TV commentators, especially Dick Button: biased, unprofessional, and doing serious damage to skaters' careers.
Hmm. I'm not sure how a commentator can "do damage to a skater's career," unless the skater watches videos of their programs and is emotionally hurt by the commentator's comments. Goebel skated in the days before YouTube. Would athletes get serious negative publicity due to commentator comments?
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Or rather, it’s probably more accurate to say that skaters don’t have a choice that they should have. Either agree to the practice of indenturing themselves to famous coaches who possess the necessary technical and political skills set, or choose to foreclose your career, because without such a coach, you will develop ‘bad’ technique and/or injure yourself, and even if you miraculously acquire ‘textbook’ technique and stay healthy enough to compete, you don’t have the political backing to get the GOE and PCS that you might deserve, and so your chances of landing on the podium is likely to be less than what it would be with a famous coach. :rolleye:

Sure, but doesn't the skater benefit quite a bit more from that relationship as well? If coaches charged everyone the same, someone like Yebin Mok would be paying the same rate as Michelle Kwan. By taking a % of Michelle's earnings off ice, he is able to make enough to provide his wisdom to skaters like Mok, who doesn't benefit as much from her affiliation with Frank Carroll. Furthermore, there are only a few "famous coaches" to go around; demand exceeds supply. There is nothing wrong for coaches setting the terms acceptable to them to take on students. Do you think every skater is entitled to a famous coach?
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Has he a good job? :) I remember to an another interview, when he asked a good job from everyone..:)
 

taikwan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Terrific interview. A revelation, actually. Shocking: Frank Carroll telling Tim he's "fired" on the way to the airport for a major competition. Incredibly selfish if Frank and deliberate. Transferring his loyalties to Evan and making it emphatic but also sabotaging Tim. Jenny has great follow-up questions - talking about that toxic environment that Tim had just cited. I prefer more from her. She seemed to be in the background initially.

Tim himself - very, very articulate, insightful and when you think about it, courageous. I also think Jenny fits these categories. and she's been in this role for a long time. A pioneer, if you will.

Very happy to hear/see how well Tim is doing in life. He's smart, quick and is very much contemporary in his knowledge of what's going on in the figure skating world both now and during his time in the spotlight. Huge strength of character.
 

yelyoh

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
This was a refreshing and illuminating interview and a lot of fun. Good for you Tim. Jen Kirk is very good at this. She has the look, image and smarts to work in the broadcast field.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
What kind of coach (or man) tells his pupil immediately before a competition that he is "fired"? What a way to sabotage some one's performance at that event!!!
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
We have only heard one side of the story.

Yes. I just asked what kind of coach would do something like that. I hope Frank is not the kind who would engage in that kind of behavior. That being said, I doubt we will ever hear the other side of the story.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Well, Frank fired Chris Bowman on TV, pretty much, and their strained relationship was commented on by the TV crew as having been evident all week. Chris had, of course, given him plenty of reason to fire him, and for the relationship to be strained, but I get the impression that when Frank's had enough, he's had enough.

Tim acknowledged that it was time for him & Frank to part ways; it's just that Frank's timing was unprofessional, IMO. It's clear that Tim's health had deteriorated to the point that I'm sure he was not a joy for Frank to teach, nor was it a joy for Tim to deal with Frank either, I suspect.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I've listened to this interview twice and got more out of it the second time. I know we've only heard one side of the story - and I appreciate that - but I think the world of big-time coaching is fraught with stories like this. Frank clearly decided that Evan was the horse to back in the race and wanted to focus all his attention on him. The fact that he no doubt made a buttload of money off of Tim's medals didn't factor into it - it was the future and the Olympics. I think Frank is an excellent coach but I'm not so sure his ethics are always professional. AFterall, these coaches are also in this job for the money. I did find the whole situation with Michelle to be very, very interesting and I've always wondered what Danny Kwan's contribution to that breakup was. The fact that Michelle and Frank are still friends leads me to suspect it wasn't Michelle's decision. Frank had been dealing with Danny's "over-involvement" for years.......

Anyway, I'm glad Tim seems to be at peace with his skating career. I hope that some day someone will do a study on the effects of landing these quads on the development of young bodies. It certainly caused some problems with Kurt Browning and his back. The pressure on the spine and lower back of landing even a triple axel is extreme.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
It's probably like jumping from a building several times a day. Human beings are not cats, to take that kind of strain. (Maybe except for Kurt.)

The whole question of Michelle and Frank is a mystery, but in a way I prefer that. Both of those people seem to like keeping such matters to themselves, out of the public eye, and these days that's not only refreshing but downright unheard of. No reality show, no tell-all book...astonishing.

I've only made it through four of the installments of the interview. Being the Michelle uber that I am, I was avid to hear Tim's description of her and how consistent she was even in practice.

The whole idea of the coach claiming future earnings is mind-boggling to me. I wonder how that worked out with champion skaters who kept switching from coach to coach. I'm thinking mostly of Sasha Cohen and Tonya Harding. Harding of course had no money to share with anyone (unless the coaches could claim a portion of her earnings from her boxing career), but Sasha has had a considerable pro career. How many people is she sharing her paydays with?
 
Top