Regarding the flutz - why do commentators hold back their comments?

Why?? Why don't they call it like they they see it? Both Sasha and at times Michelle, flutz. Michelle is most guilty of taking off on the flat which is still not a serious crime compared to Sasha's flutz. I almost never watched Sarah so when people talked about her flutz, I still never knew how a flutz looked like. This year I have watched quite a few of Sasha's programs because I am beginning to find her intriguing. I learned to identify the flutz jump from Sasha, yes, it shows how bad it is unlike Michelle's which I have to slow-mo and pay close attention. Sasha's lutz entrance looks like a straight line entrance as if she is going for the flip, and needless to say it's very obvious that her take-off is from the inside edge. As for Michelle's lutz entrance, I can see at least a curve drawn by her outside blade before she quickly switches to the flat and takes off.

I'm not bashing Sasha. I just want to know why commentators like Dick and Peggy just wouldn't call a flutz when they see one (except Nationals 2003). There's no harm saying "she flutzes but still it's a solid jump" for Sasha and "very minor flutz, nevertheless solid as a rock" for Michelle. Imagine how irked I get when I see Sasha flutz so blatantly only to hear Peggy remark "very nice triple lutz".

I think this is a very valid question. If it were any other jump, and skaters were doing it incorrectly, I think they would point it out. Maybe it is because the judges don't seem to be deducting for it, so why bother. The only times I remember hearing any commentary on the flutz is to try to explain possible lower scores than people would expect, and I think those comments were edited in after the scores were announced. Or maybe it is because so many skaters do it that the commentators feel it would turn off viewers. Who knows. They certainly mentioned it last year at Nationals, but then again, Sarah was there so they mentioned it during her skate, which led to mention during Sasha's and Jenny's skates. They said that Michelle had a nice outside edge "No flutzing there", said Dick.

Last year they would have mentioned the flutz, because Sarah's was so outrageous. You could clearly see her switch from the outside to the inside edge, so much so that her whole skate was leaning inward.

OTOH, what Sasha is doing isn't even a flutz. It is a FLIP. She doesn't go to the outside edge and switch inside, she goes right TO the inside. The problem is that the judges are ignoring the fact that Sasha doesn't have a lutz, and that she is doing two flip combinations and two triple flips in her FS rather than lutz and flip. If a young skater just coming up the ranks did the same thing, she would be marked down heavily.

They do talk about the flutzing. It would be pretty dull if they just kept repeating the same old stuff over an over again during every performance. They repeat enough as it is IMHO.

If it were any other jump, and skaters were doing it incorrectly, I think they would point it out.

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I disagree. Over the years I've heard them talk about 1) iffy Salchow technique - Dick has spoken about Elvis and Tim in particular, and if the use a 2 foot take-off to help them, 2) cheated jumps - Robin Cousins payed particular attention to Sarah, 3) Scott made a big deal about Lulu not rotating her Lutzes soon enough in Nagano, Dick has spoken about flutzes of Nicole Tara and others, Robin was almost obsessed with flutzing in SLC, 4) Dick is always going on about high kicking free legs in lutzes and flips, Tara Andrea and Sarah were all targets, 5) axels - Peggy and Dick were always taking turns on criticising Tara's, and Dick has criticised Weiss' skidding entrance as well, Dick also picked on Tonja S's

Our dutch Eurosport commentator Joan Haanappel always points out mistakes on jumps, including the (f)lutz. I find it very helpful as it makes me understand jump technics and also the marks the jury give.

Annemarie

berthes ghost said:

I disagree. Over the years I've heard them talk about 1) iffy Salchow technique - Dick has spoken about Elvis and Tim in particular, and if the use a 2 foot take-off to help them, 2) cheated jumps - Robin Cousins payed particular attention to Sarah, 3) Scott made a big deal about Lulu not rotating her Lutzes soon enough in Nagano, Dick has spoken about flutzes of Nicole Tara and others, Robin was almost obsessed with flutzing in SLC, 4) Dick is always going on about high kicking free legs in lutzes and flips, Tara Andrea and Sarah were all targets, 5) axels - Peggy and Dick were always taking turns on criticising Tara's, and Dick has criticised Weiss' skidding entrance as well, Dick also picked on Tonja S's

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I don't see where you are disagreeing with me. If you have heard them criticising other jump techniques, then aren't you agreeing with me?

I can understand why commentators might not want to point out every flutz they see, since it could get tiresome (a sad commentary, really, if so many skaters are doing them that mentioning them all would be too much for the viewers to hear), but they could possibly find a compromise by pointing out the true lutzes when they do occur. That way viewers who might not otherwise have realized just how many skaters are doing the lutz incorrectly (or doing flips instead, or whatever) might pay closer attention to each skater's technique on that jump. Also, while the commentators might not want to point out every flutz, there really is no excuse for them calling a lutz that is really a flip a "very nice lutz" (to use the example quoted above). If it's not done correctly and they don't want to mention it, why say anything at all?

euterpe said:

OTOH, what Sasha is doing isn't even a flutz. It is a FLIP. She doesn't go to the outside edge and switch inside, she goes right TO the inside. The problem is that the judges are ignoring the fact that Sasha doesn't have a lutz, and that she is doing two flip combinations and two triple flips in her FS rather than lutz and flip. If a young skater just coming up the ranks did the same thing, she would be marked down heavily.

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I disagree. I've watched Sasha's Lutz attempts very closely in slow motion at all her events and she definitely approaches the jump on the outside edge. The way I see it, she rotates about a quarter turn on the ice, which then gets her to the inside edge. To me, that's a flutz, and a very common way of flutzing at that.

I definitely want to see her fix it and think the commentators should point out flutzes and other jump mistakes, but sometimes I think people get to the point with flutzing that they make a flempest in a fleapot.
Rgirl

Broad generalization...

....it seems with flutzing, that that judges have been disregarding it to a fairly significant degree. Therefore, I can understand why commentators may give up on pointing it out when the scores don't necessarily reflect that shortfall. To an untrained eye like mine, that might make it look like the commentators didn't know what they were talking about.

Just a flought...

DG

And the judges should not disregard it. There is a definition of the lutz. It should be judged on the definition as how well a true lutz was executed, i.e., by speed, by footwork, by flow into and out of, etc. It should not be judged as an attempt which is a flutz.

BTW, Check out Michael Weiss' lutz. He's on a correct back outside edge (correct) then switches to a back inside edge (wrong) but then he switches back to the back outside edge (correct). Weird but it's a lutz.

Joe

I totally agree with Joe. I don't agree with some (from other boards) who say a flutz is a flutz. I think the lutz has to be the most scruitinized jump because of its uniqueness. Cheating on a lutz should be penalised more compared to other jumps.

The degree of flutzing has to be taken into account. On a scale from 1-10 for flutzing, if Michelle gets 3-5, Sasha should get 6-7.

Rgirl, I don't know, probably I have watched too few of Sasha's performances to draw a conclusion on her flutz. I have watched her sp and lp in Campbells 02-03, Nats 03-04 and Worlds 03, I can't help but notice her lutz entrance being in a straight line right up to take-off and it's made worse by her switching to the inside edge from the flat right before take-off! Nevertheless, I stand corrected.

In comparison, for Michelle's short lutz entrance, at the last second, I can at least still see the curve carved by the outside edge blade before she very swiftly switches back to the flat and takes off. It's still a flutz, a minor flutz though.

Commentary of U.S. Nationals vs. Worlds

One thing which I noticed last year, and perhaps in previous years as well is that the U.S. commentators tend to praise the skaters highly at U.S. Nationals but at Worlds they were more likely to criticize. They were really hyping up some of the skaters at 2003 U.S. Nationals even though other than MK there were some pretty flawed performances. But at worlds, they took all the women skaters, U.S. or otherwise, to task on their flutz, ugly positions on certain elements and cheated jumps in the case of Sarah. Interesting.

I think you will see more of an emphasis on a true lutz when CoP goes into effect. Some skaters, like Shizuka Arakawa, will definitely benefit from this. For Michelle, I think the situation will be more or less status quo. Her lutz is such that I don't think she will get bonus points for a great one or deductions for an overly flawed one. Sasha was wisely repeating her flip instead of the lutz during the GP season. I suggest she do the same next season if CoP goes into effect for all events.

I don't see where you are disagreeing with me. If you have heard them criticising other jump techniques, then aren't you agreeing with me?

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I didn't think so

The way I interpreted your 1st post, I understood you to mean that commentators don't always criticise flutzing, but if there was poor technique in any other jump, they would comment on it pronto.

My point was that I hear them comment on poor jump tecnique on a willy-nilly, off-and-on basis, equally for all jumps.

Sometimes they comment on Tim's Salchow, but mostly they don't and there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason why they comment on it when they do and why they don't when they don't.

Dick made a big deal out of Nicole's flutz at 97 Nats, but didn't even mention it once at 95 and 96 nats.

So, my point was that they don't comment on flutzing any less or with any less haphazardness than they do other jumps. That point was the oposite of what I though you were trying to say, hence my assumption of disagreement.

Could it be that most skaters don't know the correct way to do the lutz and with not getting points taken away why learn.
Did the problem of flutzing become more common after they discarded the school figures? If so maybe they need to bring the schools back in some form maybe not count for as much but still be part of the requirements.

Jhar55:

All skaters are taught how to do a Lutz properly; however, if a skater develops a bad habit and a coach does not catch it or help the skater correct the technique then the skater may continue his/her bad habit. What makes the Lutz difficult is the entry to the jump; it's easy to turn it to a flip without even thinking. When I figure skated, I did a great entrance into the Lutz, but then could not get enough spring for the jump!!!

No bringing back figures would not make any difference, there were many good skaters who were terrific at figures, but still could not do a great Lutz.

Skaters must learn to concentrate (figures are good for that!), They have to be taught good basic skills before they move up to the advanced levels - and try to "nip" bad habits "in the bud!!"

As for the commentators not mentioning this "bad habit" every time a skater commits it - is probably obscure. The average person (unless they were once a figure skater) likely would not notice anyway.

Just out of curiousity...

Of course I'm one of those average folks who never skated, so I can't tell the difference unless it's pointed out in slow motion after the fact. But just out of curiousity, is it always easy for the judges to catch? If I were a notorious flutzer, I would probably try to do my flutz as far away from the judges as possible, and if possible at some sort of angle making it hard to see. Don't know if that's possible or not...just wondering.

DG

Thank for the information Ladskater. I am one of those who also for a long time didn't know the difference on the take off a jumps.
I've sure learned a lot here.

Jhar - Both jumps take off from back outside edges but from different skates and from different toe picks. they both rotate in the air in the same direction but the lutz if far more difficult than the toe loop because the lutz is going against the grain, so to speak. You can tell the difference if you tape skating and play those jumps in slo mo. Otherwise you'll have to look carefully at the skating programs.

Joe

Re: Just out of curiousity...

Doggygirl said:

Of course I'm one of those average folks who never skated, so I can't tell the difference unless it's pointed out in slow motion after the fact. But just out of curiousity, is it always easy for the judges to catch? If I were a notorious flutzer, I would probably try to do my flutz as far away from the judges as possible, and if possible at some sort of angle making it hard to see. Don't know if that's possible or not...just wondering.

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That's what most skaters tend to do. They perform the lutz going towards the corner of the rink, opposite side to the judges, often going down the ice so it's probably hard for the judge to catch most of the time. Although they do have slow-mo replay, so they should catch it. The thing is though, almost all the skaters do this, even the ones with proper lutzes. I'd love it if a skater with a good lutz did it coming right at the judges, so they could see the outside edge clearly.

As for being easy for the judges to catch - it should be, even if they have to use slow-mo to check. Sometimes it happens so fast that they may miss it (understandable, especially if it's the other end of the rink to where they're sitting), but slow-mo, close-up, should make it clear. It is when it's slow-mo shown on TV.

To catch it yourself, concentrate on the skating foot of the skater as they are setting up for the jump. If the camera view is from behind, it's easier. The skating foot tends to make an S shape on the ice as they chance edge (sometimes you can see the tracing on the ice immediately after, which gives it away). The ankle will rock up to the flat and they go inwards instead of outwards. To try getting used to it, compare the lutzes of Sasha Cohen and Sarah Hughes (both flutzers) with the lutzes of Julia Sebestyen, or Carolina Kostner, or Elena Sokolova, or Viktoria Volchkova (all lutzers).

I personally would like commentators to point out things like flutzes, or other jump errors - if they're not obvious, people watching probably won't notice. Things like that could explain a skater's marks, and if someone doesn't notice the flaws then they might think the marks are wrong. It's sometimes annoying when they point out the flaw of one skater's jump and not the flaw of another's - or completely ignore an error all together. I've watched one pro comp (American commentator, don't know who though - I was sent it on video) and a skater did a 3salchow, underrotated and swingy, had to step out... and listened to a cry of "that was a GORGEOUS triple sal!!" from the commentator. Hmm. Then again, it annoys me when a commentator is blatantly wrong, or inaccurate, on anything.

what about all the skaters who does their flip from the outside....?