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Thread: 2013 Junior Worlds Men FS

  1. #136
    ISU, stop promoting 2-foot skating!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy15 View Post
    Excuse my ranting, but WHY IS THERE A LIMIT OF THREE SPOTS FOR A COUNTRY THAT'S DOMINATING LIKE JAPAN?!
    *rant over
    Because killing skating off in developing countries is not a particularly good idea.

    Japan is doing fine as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Anyways, to me, Josh fits the mold of how young promising male figure skating stars have generally skated and looked like in the past...idk if it's the ponytail, blue velor outfits, or the gumby moves but Jason's skating does not carry the same kind of masculinity as Josh for me and for whatever reason, I associate masculinity with power so in my mind, I associate Josh as being a more powerful skater than Jason which I think should be reflected in part of the PCS mark and why I think they deserve to have comparable PCS.
    Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria.

    (And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad. You're expecting skaters to conform to your idea of masculinity and that's really discriminatory.)
    Last edited by Ziggy; 03-02-2013 at 08:47 PM.

  2. #137
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    No one has to conform to anything. I said Jason's style is why I don't like his skating as much as Joshua PERSONALLY - I also said people are entitled to their own opinions. To some Jason may seem more masculine than Joshua, it all comes down to personal opinions, honestly comparing the two skaters is like comparing Lysacek and Weir - all I was saying that artistry does not have to come in the form of gumby spins and prettyboy choreo. Just because Jason has it and gets people's attention and Joshua's program is crafted in a more classical style does not automatically make Jason stronger artistically. The music each boy chose to skate to calls on for different types of interpretation anyways. Clearly, the judges see something in Joshua's skating that warrants his PCS marks being comparable to Jason, and similarly the judges are also seeing something in Jason's skating that is preventing his presentation marks from being even higher. This was what got me upset at Nationals too, there's not just one way to be an artistic skater...

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    No one has to conform to anything. I said Jason's style is why I don't like his skating as much as Joshua PERSONALLY - I also said people are entitled to their own opinions.
    And that is fine. What isn't fine is claiming that a skater deserves to beat another skater because he represents a type of masculinity that you prefer. That is not part of the judging criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    all I was saying that artistry does not have to come in the form of gumby spins and prettyboy choreo.
    Movement is supposed to reflect the character of the music. Brown's music was longato, soft and languid and his movement was very appropriate to it.

    Farris does move in time to the music but he just moves his arms up and down and there isn't really any style to his movement. I would never guess what type of music he was skating to, if you turned the sound off. It's just generic movement, I wish his programs had more character in them.

  4. #139
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Oh my word at Jason Brown's free skate! I am beyond pleased. I mean, just a year ago, everybody including me were wondering if Jason could ever nail down that triple axel, and the attempts this season were close but not quite there. But then, in this competition, he nails three of them! But forget the axels! The whole performance was just grand and royal. So elegant yet forthright. I love the catch foot spiral into the 3flip/.5loop/3salchow at the end. I could go on and on. Jason Brown is a marvelous conductor of the shapes his body makes to music.

    Also andat the debate over which one of Jason Brown and Joshua Farris is more masculine. Neither of them are remotely masculine by any stretch of the modern definition. And that's fine! To hell with the gender police!

    If I have to compare them, though, and apparently I must, I'll say that I find Farris' movement and style more reserved, considered and held back. He plays it closer to the chest, sometimes literally. This works better for the more contemplative pieces of music he uses, but not the more exuberant ones. Brown, on the other hand, is a lot more forthright, direct and open. There's a lot more confidence behind Jason's every extension.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Because killing skating off in developing countries is not a particularly good idea.

    Japan is doing fine as it is.



    Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria.

    (And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad. You're expecting skaters to conform to your idea of masculinity and that's really discriminatory.)
    Bravo! It's 2013. There are gay men and straight men (and probably bisexual men) skating. Who cares? I just want to see good skating. And Jason Brown is extraordinarily good, particularly in his musicality. But if both men continue to progress and improve, I see a terrific rivalry that will benefit ALL skating fans. Not matter who they sleep with!

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy15 View Post
    Excuse my ranting, but WHY IS THERE A LIMIT OF THREE SPOTS FOR A COUNTRY THAT'S DOMINATING LIKE JAPAN?!
    *rant over
    At 2012 JW, there were 3 men and they finished 9th (Tanaka), 11th (Hino) and 12th (Uno), so they got only two entries for 2013. THAT'S why they don't have 3 spots--they weren't dominating!

    And BTW, the two Japanese men finished 7th (Uno) and 10th (Hino) this year, so only two spots for 2014.

  7. #142
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post

    I don't want people to think of me as a Jason hater because that certainly is not the case, I admire his talent and like his personality. Tastes differ and everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. I just felt he deservedly placed 2nd at this competition and that ubers saying he totally gave the title away with the SP might not have been looking at the bigger picture. Anyways, to me, Josh fits the mold of how young promising male figure skating stars have generally skated and looked like in the past...idk if it's the ponytail, blue velor outfits, or the gumby moves but Jason's skating does not carry the same kind of masculinity as Josh for me and for whatever reason, I associate masculinity with power so in my mind, I associate Josh as being a more powerful skater than Jason which I think should be reflected in part of the PCS mark and why I think they deserve to have comparable PCS. I get that isn't the most PC thing to say and Jason's flexy moves probably require a ton of strength and power, it perhaps more speaks to the fact that watching him, I am not reminded of past skaters and his skating represents something very new and unique which I am not used to. Perhaps he will set the new standard for men's figure skating in years to come, he certainly has the ability, and if that is the case I think I will become a bigger fan of his in the future. But for now, I guess he's a bit of a very talented enigma for me, whereas watching Josh skate I see similarities to young Boitano, Lysacek, Buttle. But anyways, I'm just so glad they all delivered!!
    And you're entitled to your opinion as well; so I totally get and respect your reasons for liking Josh.

    That said, I'm sure that some here might take my take here as being a blind Jason stan, but hear me out here.

    In my view, Jason has a different kind of power. And yes, his flexibility transitions takes a lot of core power. I think anyone who takes yoga or pilates can appreciate how tough it is to not only hold Jason's positions but do it with the extension he does them. If Jason wasn't a figure skater, I actually think he would do great as a modern/ballet dancer. Speaking of which, if you watch the male dancers of the New York City ballet, I don't think you would say they are less masculine. They show a quiet, fierce power that is projected to the audience. That is exactly why, despite not having a triple axel, that Jason managed to get a standing ovation at Greensboro.

    Jason is not like Julia L. who likes to do flexible moves for the sake of doing them. Every extension/flex move has a purpose, a detail to the overall program. That y-spiral I pointed out earlier, for example hits a with a rising crescendo in the music then bam, on the next beat he hits that 3Z. Doris mentioned him doing moves to the beat, not the melody, if you count 1, 2, 3, 4 then you can see why he chooses to do certain moves at certain times to the program.

    Also, as the Eurosport commentator noted, Jason manages to skate to interesting music and manages to not let it over take him. Skating to Prince was not easy -- and I have to admit I wasn't enamored with it like I was with his program last season -- but he seem to put it all together at JW even with the big error. The boy was fierce. And a lot of people liked it.

    And actually, when you think about it Prince was sort of a strange enigma himself, I mean the guy went by a symbol! And he wasn't "masculine" per society's standards. But yet he had this way of drawing people in. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6r...c#.UTLhyxm4BO4

    So it's actually kind of appropriate Jason skated to his music.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Because killing skating off in developing countries is not a particularly good idea.

    Japan is doing fine as it is.



    Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria.

    (And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad. You're expecting skaters to conform to your idea of masculinity and that's really discriminatory.)
    But ladies are judged by how elegant(feminine) they are?

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    At 2012 JW, there were 3 men and they finished 9th (Tanaka), 11th (Hino) and 12th (Uno), so they got only two entries for 2013. THAT'S why they don't have 3 spots--they weren't dominating!

    And BTW, the two Japanese men finished 7th (Uno) and 10th (Hino) this year, so only two spots for 2014.
    Thanks for the information.
    I'm honestly think I'm just upset that Tanaka wasn't competing; he's my favorite of the upcoming Japanese skaters. :(
    But all in all, great competition.

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    I leave this thread alone for a few hours and suddenly the gender police are in here casting aspersions over Jason's "masculinity" vs Josh's.

    Rude. Two fine, handsome young men, with different skating styles, who just had the most fabulous competition of their lives, and some people want to pick at their silly, narrow-minded definitions of "masculine".

    Is Jason unusually flexible for a man? Yes, he is. He's worked hard for it. (It's all Joshua's fault anyway :P.) Does Jason have a very nice ponytail? Yes, he does. He likes it. Does Jason wear blue velvet pants? Well, unfortunately, yes. (I liked the black pants better.) I'm not entirely sure what any of this has to do with his "masculinity".

    Anyhow, I've just got the videos loaded, so I'm going to head off into dreamy-eyed happyland to watch my two favourite male Americans skate. And I'm going to enjoy every second of both of them, because they both laid down stunning programs in the very best of their own, individual styles.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    But ladies are judged by how elegant(feminine) they are?
    LOL but it kinda retrograde and downright silly to call it "Ladies" figure skating and not "Women." By that logic it should be the "Gentlemen's Long Program," etc. It is a double standard.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    I leave this thread alone for a few hours and suddenly the gender police are in here casting aspersions over Jason's "masculinity" vs Josh's.

    Rude. Two fine, handsome young men, with different skating styles, who just had the most fabulous competition of their lives, and some people want to pick at their silly, narrow-minded definitions of "masculine".

    Is Jason unusually flexible for a man? Yes, he is. He's worked hard for it. (It's all Joshua's fault anyway :P.) Does Jason have a very nice ponytail? Yes, he does. He likes it. Does Jason wear blue velvet pants? Well, unfortunately, yes. (I liked the black pants better.) I'm not entirely sure what any of this has to do with his "masculinity".
    We may have crossed swords in the past, but I am in complete agreement with you on this one. Elegance and masculinity are not mutually exclusive.

    Brown's performance reminded me of John Curry... my favorite male skater ever.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    But ladies are judged by how elegant(feminine) they are?
    If they are Finnish then yes. And from what I've gathered, most people feel Cesario deserved to medal or win this event because she was elegant and feminine and that alone should be enough to have her beat "robotic" Julia and "gangly and sloppy" Anna, even though they only beat her because they held their spins for the right amount of time and rotated their triple jumps, so, arguably, yes. And when Ando won Worlds, both times, people complained about how she was not elegant and had no artistry and just jumps I can continue.

    Anyways I think Jason's choices of music this season lend him to be seen as "artistic" whereas how many times have we seen a teenage boy skate to Rachmaninoff? And I think that makes a difference. So I think some of the "Jason deserves way higher PCS than everyone else at this event" is due to his packaging and program choices, and that if some of these other skaters had programs set to similar music with the same quality of choreography then people might think THEY are really artistic and deserving of high PCS, with their skating remaining of the same quality. Anyways, if anything I feel Omori was a bit hosed on PCS - 10 points below Jason and about 8 below Josh, that is a bit much IMO.

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    Jason Brown is the artist imho; I am not sure I wold say he isn't masculine. I do find the ponytail (actually it is called an atittude) is distracting and not particular helpful in creating a look - maybe a chin length cut might work better. Josh and Jason will have a great future dualing each other; but time is not in their favour to make the olympics - certainly not both but maybe one of them . The US men just killed the long program and wow they owned the podium and then some.

  15. #150
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Anyways I think Jason's choices of music this season lend him to be seen as "artistic" whereas how many times have we seen a teenage boy skate to Rachmaninoff? And I think that makes a difference. So I think some of the "Jason deserves way higher PCS than everyone else at this event" is due to his packaging and program choices, and that if some of these other skaters had programs set to similar music with the same quality of choreography then people might think THEY are really artistic and deserving of high PCS, with their skating remaining of the same quality. Anyways, if anything I feel Omori was a bit hosed on PCS - 10 points below Jason and about 8 below Josh, that is a bit much IMO.
    Jason is not getting/deserves high PCS because he is "choosing" programs with interesting choreography + different music choices. He deserves high PCS scores because he can actually skate to the choreography AS intended for those programs.

    And while Liebestraum is not a major warhorse compared to others, is a popular choice of skating music -- after all, Mao Asada skated to that music just last season. But you don't see people comparing Jason's Lieberstraum to Mao's. And oh yeah, that performance in 2011 Nationals that brought the house down? That was to Puccini's Violin Fantasy which features "Nessum Dorma," which has becoming an annoying warhorse in the last few years --- Denney and Coughlin gave us the electric guitar version!

    And different doesn't always win points with the judges. The Shibutanis' attempt to do polka to Peruvian music has not exactly gone all that well, for example. Execution matters greatly.

    As to whether Josh or Shotoro could score the same scores with the same choreography/music choices...the bigger question is would they be able to do the choreography, again, as intended in the first place? That's the point that Ziggy and others have tried to point out in this discussion. To do choreography to a song like "The Question of U" which has a very vague melody in parts, would be quite impressive for someone at the senior level let alone at the junior level.

    Josh has a lot to bring to the table -- big jumps, great skating skills, good flow. But Jason has the edge on choreography. As the Eurosport commentator said (Nicky, I think), "It's to die for."
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-03-2013 at 04:10 AM.

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