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Thread: 2013 Junior Worlds Men FS

  1. #211
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Not to be too much of a pain, but when Kovtun won the JGPF against Josh & Jason, his total score was
    1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
    222.31 2 1

    Which is less than both Josh & Jason had at Jr. Worlds, total.



    If you look at his free skate, in which he hit everything, including his 4T3T
    1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 149.78 79.80 69.98 7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 0.00 #5

    Whereas at Junior Worlds, both Brown & Farris had higher FS scores, and higher PCS.

    1 Jason BROWN USA 154.09 81.03 73.06 7.14 7.14 7.50 7.25 7.50 0.00 #24
    2 Joshua FARRIS USA 152.48 82.70 70.78 7.14 6.86 7.14 7.11 7.14 1.00 #23

    I would say the three guys are at about the same point, scorewise.

  2. #212
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    I would agree but I think Kovtun did get level 1 on one of his spins at JGPF, and might have gotten level 2 or 3 on the other two, so he did lose a few points there. Also his lip always gets called so that hurt's him in the SP. If Kovtun was clean with all his jumps he probably could have won WJC, but with a mistake or two he definitely could have lost to Farris and/or Brown. I don't think Kovtun would score a 152 with falling on his quad though or a 154 without attempting one, so he needs all his jumps to be around the same score range. At his first JGP he again scored 149ish for a clean skate with 4t and two 3a.

  3. #213
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Not to be too much of a pain, but when Kovtun won the JGPF against Josh & Jason, his total score was
    1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS
    222.31 2 1

    Which is less than both Josh & Jason had at Jr. Worlds, total.



    If you look at his free skate, in which he hit everything, including his 4T3T
    1 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 149.78 79.80 69.98 7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 0.00 #5

    Whereas at Junior Worlds, both Brown & Farris had higher FS scores, and higher PCS.

    1 Jason BROWN USA 154.09 81.03 73.06 7.14 7.14 7.50 7.25 7.50 0.00 #24
    2 Joshua FARRIS USA 152.48 82.70 70.78 7.14 6.86 7.14 7.11 7.14 1.00 #23

    I would say the three guys are at about the same point, scorewise.
    More data:

    Kovtun got 72 PCS at Euros:

    152.11 79.89 72.22 7.36 6.82 7.43 7.25 7.25

    If he did the 3S and not the combo...that score would have been been up to 156.76 (with TES of 84.54).

    So it's worth noting that even with two quads (including a 4-3) and two 3A's, he was still only 2.67 and 4.28 points higher than Jason (who had no quads) and Josh (who fell on his), respectively. And when you take out the extra element at the senior level) that gap is even smaller.

    So yeah, I'd agree with you.

    And FWIW if Jason and Josh's scores would have put them in 4th and 5th in the FS at 4CC and 7th and 8th overall.
    I say this with the knowledge that it isn't a PERFECT comparison, but to note that I think they would do relatively well in the GP.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    No, now you look foolish again. "they didn't have good results"? Hmm. Let's investigate that, shall we?
    We shall:
    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    asked to stay in Juniors by the USFSA because they DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH GP ASSIGNMENTS TO GO AROUND IF THEY WENT SENIOR. Had Joshua gone Senior, he would have only got one GP (his previous Nationals result was too low), which not only is pointless, but would have damaged his WR. Staying Junior meant two JGPs and JGPF which is miles better for his ranking scores.
    So, you are calling yourself foolish when you claimed that they had to stay in Junior to keep their ranking scores up because they had too low results that wouldn't allow them to get enough GPs in Senior? I have absolutely no disagreement on that. Keep arguing with yourself.


    Great stars win JWC at 15-16yo as the history proved. At 18-19yo they are fighting in Senoirs for major titles like WC or even OC. Your guys are not of that league and won't be.

    They didn't have "straght fight" with Kovtun at GPF? Someone got sick with flu or stomachache or whatever? What a tragedy. Plu was competing for a good deal of his career with much more serious injuries and almost never lost. As I said- your guys are not of that league.

    Comparing scores from different events for judging who would have won at another event is the most desperate thing to do.

  5. #215
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    We shall:
    So, you are calling yourself foolish when you claimed that they had to stay in Junior to keep their ranking scores up because they had too low results that wouldn't allow them to get enough GPs in Senior? I have absolutely no disagreement on that. Keep arguing with yourself.


    Great stars win JWC at 15-16yo as the history proved. At 18-19yo they are fighting in Senoirs for major titles like WC or even OC. Your guys are not of that league and won't be.

    They didn't have "straght fight" with Kovtun at GPF? Someone got sick with flu or stomachache or whatever? What a tragedy. Plu was competing for a good deal of his career with much more serious injuries and almost never lost. As I said- your guys are not of that league.

    Comparing scores from different events for judging who would have won at another event is the most desperate thing to do.
    i guess we'll see.

    We have no idea if Kovtun would definitely have won at JW. Nor would we know if Jason and Josh would have fared at 4CC. But I put the scores out there for the record and as far as SBs, the ISU do make comparisons between competitions regardless if they're junior or senior, so I don't think it's all that out of base to note it. And in the eyes of the ISU, Jason Brown has the No. 13 SB score in the FS, Farris No. 15 and Kovtun. No. 16. Of course Kovtun is going to Worlds, so he'll have a chance to improve on that.

    (As an aside, I find it interesting (maybe scary?) that there are three junior skaters (along wtih Aaron, Dornbush and Miner) who have higher SB FS scores than Jeremy...)

    I hope all three are at GP this fall so we have a better comparison. Because you are correct that seniors is a different ball of wax than juniors. Kovtun does have the advantage of that extra experience.

    And as for history...a trend is a trend until it isn't anymore. Sort of like those stats they pull out during U.S. Presidential Elections -- no person has won the presidency without winning X state...then some presidential candidate defies the trend and wins without that state.

  6. #216
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Personally, I have seen and made so many bad predictions that I refuse to make any.

    I think of Rudy Galindo who won Jr Worlds, and then didn't make it back to Senior Worlds for nearly 10 years. At his first and only Worlds, he won the bronze

    I might have thought of Boitano, who like Kovtun, was a guy with good jumps but otherwise kind of blah, until suddenly in his final season, he was much more. Can Kovtun be Boitano?

    I think of Menshov, a late bloomer whose fed is giving him no chance at all, really. Could he be a Galindo, if only his fed would give him a chance at Euros or Worlds?

    I think of Javier, who did nothing at Jr. Worlds at 16, and who may well win Sr. Worlds this year? Could Jason or Josh be Javier? Or not? Or both?

    And Kevin Reynolds, who couldn't make top ten, and just won 4CC's, and may beat the much heralded Patrick Chan at Worlds this year?

    Of Stephane Lambiel, who never had a decent 3A, but great artistry & a quad, and whose highest Jr. Worlds placement was fifth
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9phane_Lambiel
    Who for me will always be one of the great artists of the sport.

    Or Toller Cranston, who never placed higher than third at Worlds or Olympics, who for me is one of the greatest ever

    Does being great always mean winning? It doesn't to me.

    I see three young guys, all talented in different ways. All of them could eventually be counted among the greats, or none of them may. That is sport, and also life.

    At this point, I will rule none of them out as pre-failed and doomed to future failure
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-07-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  7. #217
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Personally, I have seen and made so many bad predictions that I refuse to make any.

    I think of Rudy Galindo who won Jr Worlds, and then didn't make it back to Senior Worlds for nearly 10 years. At his first and only Worlds, he won the bronze

    I might have thought of Boitano, who like Kovtun, was a guy with good jumps but otherwise kind of blah, until suddenly in his final season, he was much more. Can Kovtun be Boitano?

    I think of Menshov, a late bloomer whose fed is giving him no chance at all, really. Could he be a Galindo, if only his fed would give him a chance at Euros or Worlds?

    I think of Javier, who did nothing at Jr. Worlds at 16, and who may well win Sr. Worlds this year? Could Jason or Josh be Javier? Or not? Or both?

    And Kevin Reynolds, who couldn't make top ten, and just won 4CC's, and may beat the much heralded Patrick Chan at Worlds this year?

    Of Stefan Lambiel, who never had a decent 3A, but great artistry & a quad, and whose highest Jr. Worlds placement was fifth
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9phane_Lambiel
    Who for me will always be one of the great artists of the sport.

    Or Toller Cranston, who never placed higher than third at Worlds or Olympics, who for me is one of the greatest ever

    Does being great always mean winning? It doesn't to me.

    I see three young guys, all talented in different ways. All of them could eventually be counted among the greats, or none of them may. That is sport, and also life.

    At this point, I will rule none of them out as pre-failed and doomed to future failure

    Exactly. And I also think it's true that winning doesn't always make you great.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I think of Menshov, a late bloomer whose fed is giving him no chance at all, really.
    No, it is not so.
    He had many chances but did not use them.
    Three Universiads - 11, 11, 7 places.
    Five GP Events - no medals.
    One Euro - Gachinsky was ahead him (Gachinsky 5th, Menshov 7th), after that Gachinsky had Worlds where earned bronse.
    One WTT - last, 12th place of Men.
    Very many Senior Bs (up to three in season) - not very good results.
    Only twice he was medalist at Nationals (while he took place in all Nationals from 2001 to 2013).
    And so on.

    What could Fed do more for him?

  9. #219
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    No, it is not so.
    He had many chances but did not use them.
    Three Universiads - 11, 11, 7 places.
    Five GP Events - no medals.
    One Euro - Gachinsky was ahead him (Gachinsky 5th, Menshov 7th), after that Gachinsky had Worlds where earned bronse.
    One WTT - last, 12th place of Men.
    Very many Senior Bs (up to three in season) - not very good results.
    Only twice he was medalist at Nationals (while he took place in all Nationals from 2001 to 2013).
    And so on.

    What could Fed do more for him?
    That's why Doris said he's a late bloomer. Late bloomer, in essence, means that the results didn't come by right away. I think what the Fed could have done for him was send him to Euros as Russia No. 3, because, well, he finished third at Nationals and had a decent GP -- even if he didn't medal, he did a respectable job against stacked fields in both completions. I know that us U.S. fans debate up and down about using Nationals as the prime Worlds/Olympic qualifier, but it does make things quite straight forward -- and less anti-climatic. (Unless the scoring is all a whack, which is another discussion).

    Instead you get this: "Oh, you won the bronze medal? Congrats, but we still don't think you're good enough so we're sending this guy instead even though he finished behind you."

    Besides, quite frankly, and perhaps I'm more biased because I saw the guy live at SA, but to me, Menshov's programs are a lot more memorable than Kovtun's. And he has really nice jumps.

  10. #220
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Jason Brown's final blog posts is posted on ice network: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

    His thoughts on the free skate:

    I was last to skate, and I knew I had the opportunity to help make history and be part of the first men's sweep from any country. The arena was silent as I got into my starting position ... by the end, I had tears in my eyes. I have been working so hard this entire season, struggling to master and integrate a new jump, and to successfully perform the way I've dreamt was so overwhelming and emotional.

    The three of us finished one (Josh), two (me), three (Shotaro). We were very proud to sweep the podium, all so honored to be representing Team USA ... definitely an experience I will never forget.
    It sounds like he's pretty happy with the way things turned out.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    That's why Doris said he's a late bloomer. Late bloomer, in essence, means that the results didn't come by right away. I think what the Fed could have done for him was send him to Euros as Russia No. 3
    It could be so at other season, not pre-Olympic.
    One place at Worlds - need to send to Worlds Man, who has best chance to earn 2 places for Olympics.

    They sent Kovtun to Euro - he was the best at Euro of Russians and won Voronov who was much higher in score at Nationals than both Menshov and Kovtun.
    So to send Kovtun to Euro was not a mistake.
    And to send Kovtun to Worlds also does not look as mistake.

    Menshov, being higher than Gachinsky at National, was lower him at Euro. Gachinsky had medal at Worlds - so to send Gachinsky to Worlds was not a mistake.
    Now situation is about the same. Interests of team preval.

  12. #222
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    It could be so at other season, not pre-Olympic.
    One place at Worlds - need to send to Worlds Man, who has best chance to earn 2 places for Olympics.

    They sent Kovtun to Euro - he was the best at Euro of Russians and won Voronov who was much higher in score at Nationals than both Menshov and Kovtun.
    So to send Kovtun to Euro was not a mistake.
    And to send Kovtun to Worlds also does not look as mistake.

    Menshov, being higher than Gachinsky at National, was lower him at Euro. Gachinsky had medal at Worlds - so to send Gachinsky to Worlds was not a mistake.
    Now situation is about the same. Interests of team preval.
    Eh, I really don't think Meshnov would have done any worse at Euros than Kovtun. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

    I don't want to go into a individual vs team debate, but I still maintain that we don't know how Menshov would have done had he been sent to Euros instead.

    The Gachinski situation isn't even the same as Kovtun's as he finished second behind Menshov, so it made perfect sense for 1-2 to duke it out at Euros for a spot at Worlds. But even a bronze medal at Worlds isn't a guarantee of future results; he has yet to medal at a GP and out of the podium at Nationals, though he still beat Kovtun.

    That's why I'm not completely sold on the "committee over results" model.

  13. #223
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    Farris, Brown, Omori podium video and photo -- brooms in hand

    Farris, Brown, Omori podium video and photo -- brooms in hand

    American Podium Sweep - ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013
    Published on Mar 7, 2013
    Joshua Farris, Jason Brown and Shotaro Omori sweep the podium for the Men at the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships in Milan, Italy.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx5Qx...WZCQvyiRR-QAKw

    1:22 in length.
    The sweeping schtick goes on a little too long, but the comments from each medalist at the end are sweet.

    Still photo of same (from Mar 3):

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Jason Brown's final blog posts is posted on ice network: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
    Thanks, Mrs. P. I had been waiting to read Brown's final posts.

    Omori's perspective on the entire Milan experience here:
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

    Includes an esp. nice comment about enjoying Brown's company and a mention of the broom-sweeping.

  14. #224
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    From Shotaro

    I was so grateful to be able to go with Jason because he made things so fun!"
    Sometimes you might want a guy on the team, no matter how he skates

  15. #225
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    Between Joshua, Jason and Shotaro, the adorable in here is reaching dangerously high levels!

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