One of My Favorite Free Dance Programs of All Time | Page 2 | Golden Skate

One of My Favorite Free Dance Programs of All Time

ImaginaryPogue

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Of course, if we're playing politics, you're comparing the Canadian number 2s with the French number 1s. Just sayin'
 

dorispulaski

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No, I'm not playing politices; if the Duchesnays were as bad as the Canadians thought they were (worse than Garossinos, especially in the CD), almost all the other judges would have had them in 11th place or as low as 14th in the CD. The British judge would had them in 9th instead of 7th.

I really do wonder whether there was a split in what Canadians thought was important from what other countries thought, and I whether this was part of the reason that Canada didn't have any highly ranked teams after W&McC retired in 1988 until Bourne & Kraatz finally came to the fore in Canada in 1994:

Garossino 1989 9th in Paris
Mitchell & McDonald 11th in Pairs
Borlase & Smith 7th in Halifax in 1990
Petr & Janoschak 10th 1991
Borlase & Smith 16th 1991
Petr & Janoschak 12th 1992
Mann & Noria 16th 1992
Bourne & Kraatz 14th 1993

I do think that is part of the problem the US ladies have had; prior to IJS, the US establishment had absolutely no interest in girls with big jumps. They did not like speedy girl skaters. They placed no particular stress on whether girls flutzed, lipped or underrotated. What they seemed to value was physical beauty & flexibility & "ladylikeness" & a really good classic layback position. And the training kids got churned out kids with bad jump technique who grew up to get slammed by the IJS, and rightly so.

I'm wondering whether something similar was going on in Canada in dance in the 80's and early 90's.

In the US in that period, there was, for example, a huge value placed on doing FD's that were strictly ballroom, and which got slammed internationally. But they didn't learn. Year after year, ballroom was overvalued.

It used to frustrate me a lot.

But even the US judge thought the Garossinos were significantly worse than the Duchesnays.

So I find it interesting, and wonder what was driving that opinion.
 

ImaginaryPogue

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Hmmm....

I'm asserting that outside of the USSR with it's dance tradition, the number twos were generally outranked by other nation's number ones.

As to your theory of the split in what was thought to be important, it's definitely worth remembering that Wilson/McCall are World and Olympic medalists, and the Duchesnays went to France during their reign. So whatever triggered it, and I would agree that not feeling respected by the Canadian figure skating community was part of it, I don't think it was differing perceptions in dance (would you argue that any of the teams you mentioned excelled 'in their own way' and were ignored the way you imply that the US dancers were).
 

dorispulaski

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That's not quite what I'm saying; lets go to the US girls, since that's more recent: URs, flutzes, and lips are bad. US skate judging completely gave those problems little importance, both in training & in judging. The world judges were and are right to ding US skaters for doing those things. But it's been years, and it's like US skating was not getting the message.

Heck, they are still not getting the message. Consider the case of Samantha Cesario at Jr. Worlds. 4 URs in the LP.

And they sent Cesario over Wang & Miller, whose problems are not as severe as Cesario's. It is not like Cesario didn't skate the same way at US Nationals, but she didn't get dinged for all the UR's.

The reverse could be true. Suppose the entire judging system really didn't care whether you lipped or flutzed. If there were a a federation that persistently punished flutzes & lips, and disadvantaged a girl who would score better internationally than nationally, that would be an equally bad mistake by the Fed.

I have to go back and watch those Killians again, and try to see what the international judges liked about the Duchesnays that the Canadian judges didn't like & what the Canadian judge preferred in the Garrossino's skating.

The fact that the G's were Canada #2 is sort of immaterial in this case. They didn't suddently score better internationally when they were Canada #1.
 

ManyCairns

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That's what I was wondering, and I started to write that the Canadian Fed must've had their heads up their ... ahem, but anyway, it does seem possible that the Canadian Fed was fixated on some hypothetical purity in the compulsories or some particular qualities in the compulsories that they thought were preeminent or overweening requirements for a team to have, even if the rest of the world disagreed.

Not basing this impression on anything other than the info brought forward in this thread. Just that that was my first thought, that the boring G couple must have embodied some quality or qualities the Canadian establishment thought were quintessential in some way.
 

dorispulaski

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rallycairn, yes, that's what I wonder now, and thought at the time. There was this Canadian commentator, telling me that the D's were worse than the G's in some difficult to cure way, and I'm going, and what way would that be, please? I'm darned if I know what it was. Maybe toepoint?

IP, I'm not ignoring your second point, but I'm not sure which point that was? Please restate?

I swear I remember hearing or reading some interview that the D's believed they would never get to Worlds as long as the G's were skating, because the G's stunk, and Canada would never have 3 spots; and implied when W&McC retired, the G's would still stink, and Canada would then have one spot, and they still would never get to Worlds.

The D's may have believed that all that was in play was "wait your turn" but also, from the first I heard of this, there were stories about the horrible skating of the Duchesnays that they refused to improve, so they left.

So I wondered which story was true. And if it was the second, what skating quality was it that Skate Canada was objecting to.
 

ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
1. The Grossanos vs Duchesnays issue would've arisen during the reign of Wilson/McCall

2. Wilson/McCall were World and Olympic medalists.

3. So, given that SC certainly supported W/M, their views of ice dance as compared to the international community couldn't have been drastically different (otherwise W/M wouldn't have had the success they did).

4. Unless you're willing to argue that W/M should've had more success. I think Klimova/Ponamarenko >>>>> W/M though. B/B... maybe, maybe not, but if K/P couldn't beat them internationally, then no way should W/M do so.
 

dorispulaski

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Not necessarily. W&MC could have had both the attributes SC valued & the attributes that the international judges valued as well.

An example: US figure skating inordinately values a lovely layback and a particular version of nice posture in spirals. It has never hurt a lady internationally to have those. If said lady can also do 7 fully rotated triple jumps on correct edges, with nice transitions, international judges will score her well too.

However, if US figure skating sends a lady with nice spirals & layback to Worlds, and she UR's all her jumps, and flutzes, she will not score well.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Jul 26, 2003
I think Sandra Bezic said it best after the Duschenay's incredible masterpiece at 1990 Worlds. Klimova/Ponomarenko may have out-skated The Duschenays, but they did not out-perform them. I think the Duschenay's problem was that after 1990, they sort of plateaued creatively and didn't know how to top Missing. Although their 1991 Euros FD was conceptually interesting and different, the audience simply did not get into it as much. Also, a lot of their choreography became repetitive with Paul (the superior skater) using Isabelle as a prop for most of the dance.

To be honest, in Albertville, I think a strong case could be made to put the Duschenays in fourth. Granted, I think my view of the Duschenays is clouded by IJS or modern ice dance (late 1990s to now), but I don't understand how the Duschenays were ever close to Klimova/Ponomarenko in the scoring. To me, K/P were just on another world of near perfection in terms of skating skills, unison, and technical difficulty. But then I also think Klimova/Ponomarenko should have beaten Bestemianova/Bukin a few times as well. At least, we got to see K/P branch out with their brilliant free dance in 1992.
 

dorispulaski

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K&P were one of those teams that I enjoyed more on TV than in real life, with the exception of their great 1987 OSP (the one that spawned the Golden Waltz.

Furthermore, despite nice technique, they didn't manage a lot of emotional range or project beyond the boards, even when doing their 1992 program (which I saw at Worlds that year live.) You have no idea how much the audience did not get into the 1992 Worlds ice dance in Oakland. R&K were one of the few high spots (the Duchesnays did not compete). People left saying they deserved to win, but man was that boring, something I never would have expected, having been thrilled by their Olympic performance on TV.

I can completely see why the Duchesnays beat them. I saw Missing I live at Halifax in 1990, and they were on another planet from K&P performance-wise, K&P were skating to My Fair Lady, AFAIR, which at the time just felt dated, rather than retro.
 

ImaginaryPogue

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I think Sandra Bezic said it best after the Duschenay's incredible masterpiece at 1990 Worlds. Klimova/Ponomarenko may have out-skated The Duschenays, but they did not out-perform them. I think the Duschenay's problem was that after 1990, they sort of plateaued creatively and didn't know how to top Missing. Although their 1991 Euros FD was conceptually interesting and different, the audience simply did not get into it as much. Also, a lot of their choreography became repetitive with Paul (the superior skater) using Isabelle as a prop for most of the dance.

To be honest, in Albertville, I think a strong case could be made to put the Duschenays in fourth. Granted, I think my view of the Duschenays is clouded by IJS or modern ice dance (late 1990s to now), but I don't understand how the Duschenays were ever close to Klimova/Ponomarenko in the scoring. To me, K/P were just on another world of near perfection in terms of skating skills, unison, and technical difficulty. But then I also think Klimova/Ponomarenko should have beaten Bestemianova/Bukin a few times as well. At least, we got to see K/P branch out with their brilliant free dance in 1992.

Agreed. Usova/Zhulin were robbed
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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K&P were one of those teams that I enjoyed more on TV than in real life, with the exception of their great 1987 OSP (the one that spawned the Golden Waltz.

Furthermore, despite nice technique, they didn't manage a lot of emotional range or project beyond the boards, even when doing their 1992 program (which I saw at Worlds that year live.) You have no idea how much the audience did not get into the 1992 Worlds ice dance in Oakland. R&K were one of the few high spots (the Duchesnays did not compete). People left saying they deserved to win, but man was that boring, something I never would have expected, having been thrilled by their Olympic performance on TV.

I can completely see why the Duchesnays beat them. I saw Missing I live at Halifax in 1990, and they were on another planet from K&P performance-wise, K&P were skating to My Fair Lady, AFAIR, which at the time just felt dated, rather than retro.

I think K/P are one of those dancers that are an acquired taste. Especially, that 1992 FD. At first, I thought it was boring too. For some reason, it takes multiple viewings for one to fully appreciate that one. I actually love the majority of their programs (their 1987 and 1988 FDs, their OSPs, etc.), but I do wonder how they would have looked live.

The problem I have with the Duschenays winning or scoring close to K/P is because they really were technically deficient compared to K/P. It's like the time Stephanie Rosenthal blew the house down with her Nationals skate in 2006. She probably had THE performance of that competition, but did she deserve to beat Sasha?
 

KKonas

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I was lucky enough to see dozens of major international competitions live from 1988 OWG to 2002. I think the Duchenays were great entertainers and eventually became pretty good ice dancers but did not have the quality of edge of a Klimova/Ponomarenko or Usova/Zhulin. It was Gritshuk/Platov that took multiple viewings to appreciate. They were incredibly fast and had good basics, but were IMO an acquired taste to fully appreciate. It was their speed that continues to influence ice dancing today.
 

dorispulaski

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Definitely true about G&P.

And it's true that K&P's edges were much better than the D's.

But it is also true that especially in the 1988-1991 timeframe, they suffered from boring material
.
They were probably the best waltz team ever, IMO. OTOH, there 1992 polka, at least as performed at Worlds, was not convincing as a polka. It was sort of like V&M's waltz polka they did this year, but with the polka rhythm music throughout. I'm not explaining this well.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Definitely true about G&P.

And it's true that K&P's edges were much better than the D's.

But it is also true that especially in the 1988-1991 timeframe, they suffered from boring material
.
They were probably the best waltz team ever, IMO. OTOH, there 1992 polka, at least as performed at Worlds, was not convincing as a polka. It was sort of like V&M's waltz polka they did this year, but with the polka rhythm music throughout. I'm not explaining this well.

I agree that their FDs were dated in 1989 and 1990 but I loved their OSPs during those two seasons. Their Charleston is one of the best Charlestons I've seen and their Samba was probably the best of the top teams (even with the annoying 1980s keyboard version of the Cock Roach song).

I really liked their 1991 material and the Europeans version of Lawrence of Arabia blew me away in terms of difficult content and near-perfect unison.

I agree with you about their Polka though. It was sort of boring but luckily most of the polkas were sort of uninspired.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
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Jul 28, 2003
Because in those days with the old judging system it took a long time for skaters to work their way up. With so many great ice dance teams being developed in Canada they just felt they could rise to the top faster representing France. It was a shame because of their unique talent. I wonder if they might have decided differently now under the new judging system?
 
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I think that what this discussion proves is that sometimes even the best skaters can't always outskate a pair (or an individual) who brings something brilliant to the ice that night, or that season. The person (or couple) with the highest score isn't always the one you remember with admiration. For me, a good example is the 1994 Olympic ice dance finals. People can give me sheets of statistics proving that Grishchuk and Platov were the best skaters that night, but I love Usova/Zhulin and of course Torvill/Dean. And while I adore Klimova/Ponomarenko, what stands out to me as I watch "Missing" on video is the raw immediacy of Paul and Isabelle, skating in graceful street clothes, with Marina and Sergei waiting their turn dressed in some satiny ballet getup. Don't ask me what music K/P skated to, because it's completely gone from my mind. Their skating was probably superior, but on that night, so what?
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Jul 26, 2003
I think that what this discussion proves is that sometimes even the best skaters can't always outskate a pair (or an individual) who brings something brilliant to the ice that night, or that season. The person (or couple) with the highest score isn't always the one you remember with admiration. For me, a good example is the 1994 Olympic ice dance finals. People can give me sheets of statistics proving that Grishchuk and Platov were the best skaters that night, but I love Usova/Zhulin and of course Torvill/Dean. And while I adore Klimova/Ponomarenko, what stands out to me as I watch "Missing" on video is the raw immediacy of Paul and Isabelle, skating in graceful street clothes, with Marina and Sergei waiting their turn dressed in some satiny ballet getup. Don't ask me what music K/P skated to, because it's completely gone from my mind. Their skating was probably superior, but on that night, so what?

Way to diminish what K/P brought to Ice Dancing.
 

KKonas

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Oct 31, 2009
Well I was in Albertville, Lillehamer, and Nagano. In Albertville the two CDs were the Paso and the Blues and K/P were 1st, U/Z 2nd and D/D 3rd. The OD was the Polka. Duchesnays skated to the Lonely Goatherd from The Sound of Music. It was awful. I wrote at the time that “this sweet, traditional piece stretched the bounds of credibility when performed by the Duchesnays. They might have sleep walked thru the whole thing.”
Usova /Zhulin skated their OD to a Strauss, Jr. piece and I said that they made the mistake “and tried to be cute, rather than warm and spontaneous,” and that Klimova/Ponomarenko’s version “ was more of a parody than a real polka.” Rahkamo/Kokko changed their “hoedown polka” (thankfully) to “a real honest-to-goodness polka” to Sakkinarven Polka.” So I didn’t much like most of the other polkas.
(Note) At this competition, Camerlengo with his partner Stephania Galegari were 5th overall.) K/P won with their Bach FD, which I said “was the most technically difficult of all the FDs. Watching Klimova wind herself around Ponomarenko’s body in various sinuous positions was pretty enthralling.” They won gold.
The Duchesnays skated to the (by that time) well-worn West Side Story. I said, “they skated almost without expression, a rare thing indeed. Isabelle left the rink in tears, although they won the silver medal. By abandoning their revolutionary approach, they lost the very thing that made them unique.”
U/Z were third with their beautiful performance to Vivaldi’s Four Seasons. I said, “The performance had great difficulty, wonderful unison and beautiful line.”
 
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