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Thread: Yuna Kim - 2013 version

  1. #76
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    I watched Kim Yu-na's LP live (my first live skating event YAY!!!!) and ... geez. There was no contest and she left everyone in the dust. It's like everyone has always told me - you can't fully appreciate speed and ice coverage until you see the event live. I think also that Yu-na has improved artistically since 2010. She was always a fanatastic artist in my eyes because of her musicality but now there's more emotion and she gave me shivers, the way Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen used to. I was high up in the stands across from the judges and from there you really appreciate the skaters who can reach out to you.

    The only one who came close was Carolina, who was pretty much just as majestic as Kim Yu-na and the crowd adored her and her Bolero program. She is now one of my very favorites. The nosebleed only endeared her more to the audince, of course. The mistakes, not so much. I was a little surprised at how high her score but she was definitely my second-favorite skater of the night and I suppose her mistakes weren't all that costly compared to the points she racked up elsewhere.

    Mao Asada was lovely too. It's too bad she didn't nail her program because she fell short of breathtaking. Of course, she isn't has fast as Yuna or Carolina but I think if she had nailed her jumps she would have gotten the crowd more into her skate and her exquisiteness would have shone through even more. I wish I could see more spiral sequences from her. There's a place where she could really set herself apart from Yu-na and Caro. But I was sooo happy that she pulled up to 3rd.

    BTW, I was very happy to see that both of the USA ladies also had very good ice presence. The crowd went totally nuts for Gracie. More so than for Ashley, I suppose because Gracie is new and exciting but Ashley would have probably also gotten a great reception had she nailed her program. Bummer about the random fall but it was great to see the two US ladies but good competitors and good fighters. and of course, yay for them for getting the third spot back. Hurray!!

    Sorry for the tagent on a Yu-na thread. I'm so thrilled that she's back and that I got to see her LIVE!!!!!!

  2. #77
    Custom Title ordinary person's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I watched Kim Yu-na's LP live (my first live skating event YAY!!!!) and ... geez. There was no contest and she left everyone in the dust. It's like everyone has always told me - you can't fully appreciate speed and ice coverage until you see the event live. I think also that Yu-na has improved artistically since 2010. She was always a fanatastic artist in my eyes because of her musicality but now there's more emotion and she gave me shivers, the way Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen used to. I was high up in the stands across from the judges and from there you really appreciate the skaters who can reach out to you.

    The only one who came close was Carolina, who was pretty much just as majestic as Kim Yu-na and the crowd adored her and her Bolero program. She is now one of my very favorites. The nosebleed only endeared her more to the audince, of course. The mistakes, not so much. I was a little surprised at how high her score but she was definitely my second-favorite skater of the night and I suppose her mistakes weren't all that costly compared to the points she racked up elsewhere.

    Mao Asada was lovely too. It's too bad she didn't nail her program because she fell short of breathtaking. Of course, she isn't has fast as Yuna or Carolina but I think if she had nailed her jumps she would have gotten the crowd more into her skate and her exquisiteness would have shone through even more. I wish I could see more spiral sequences from her. There's a place where she could really set herself apart from Yu-na and Caro. But I was sooo happy that she pulled up to 3rd.

    BTW, I was very happy to see that both of the USA ladies also had very good ice presence. The crowd went totally nuts for Gracie. More so than for Ashley, I suppose because Gracie is new and exciting but Ashley would have probably also gotten a great reception had she nailed her program. Bummer about the random fall but it was great to see the two US ladies but good competitors and good fighters. and of course, yay for them for getting the third spot back. Hurray!!

    Sorry for the tagent on a Yu-na thread. I'm so thrilled that she's back and that I got to see her LIVE!!!!!!
    I agree about Yuna, i was quite skeptical at first mainly because i thought she wouldn't be able to perform a triple/double/double even though she did a 2axel/2toe/2loop.
    I take my words back now, she really has improved, i wonder if she'll participate in Skate Canada which she hasn't won yet if i'm correct.

  3. #78
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    I don't get it.

    Yes Yuna is great but, I don't see her being 50 points ahead of anyone. Same thing with Chan. The program was not in anyway a choreographic masterpiece. I thought Caro's program was more detailed.

    But, Yes Yuna was the clear winner (except maybe the little chinese girl, who had way more jumps and better spins).

    I thought the judges had it right in the short program. Almost anyone in the top 6 could have won the competition.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterB View Post
    I don't get it.

    Yes Yuna is great but, I don't see her being 50 points ahead of anyone. Same thing with Chan. The program was not in anyway a choreographic masterpiece. I thought Caro's program was more detailed.

    But, Yes Yuna was the clear winner (except maybe the little chinese girl, who had way more jumps and better spins).

    I thought the judges had it right in the short program. Almost anyone in the top 6 could have won the competition.
    more like 21 points.........which I think it's possible since Yuna skated a clean program whereas Caro popped her loop, and fell on 3S which was downgraded. that's like 10 points right there. Plus Yuna gets better GOE's than Caro.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterB View Post
    I don't get it.

    Yes Yuna is great but, I don't see her being 50 points ahead of anyone. Same thing with Chan. The program was not in anyway a choreographic masterpiece. I thought Caro's program was more detailed.

    But, Yes Yuna was the clear winner (except maybe the little chinese girl, who had way more jumps and better spins).

    I thought the judges had it right in the short program. Almost anyone in the top 6 could have won the competition.
    My thought exactly. I'm not questioning Yuna's win, it was 150% deserved. But do you all think it's fair she can make such a big lead in the GOE alone that noone else is practically able to beat her? Was her program really about 15-20 points better than skaters from 2-4 places? I just want to know your opinion with at least short justification if possible. Maybe I'm missing sth, idk.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherryy View Post
    My thought exactly. I'm not questioning Yuna's win, it was 150% deserved. But do you all think it's fair she can make such a big lead in the GOE alone that noone else is practically able to beat her? Was her program really about 15-20 points better than skaters from 2-4 places? I just want to know your opinion with at least short justification if possible. Maybe I'm missing sth, idk.
    The problem is with the scoring system. Do we really need 14+ GOE points to tell us that Yu Na was the winner?

  7. #82
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    I don't have a problem with the GOEs in this contest. Yu-na got killer total GOEs because every single one of her elements was high quality. When you get all positives and no negatives, that starts to add up.

    Kim got an average of 1.38 on her 12 elements. Asada got an average of 1,01 on the 8 elements that she got positive GOEs for. But she had four elements with negative GOEs, which cancelled a good deal of that.

    Kostner averaged 1.10 on the ten elements where she earned positive GOEs, but she lost ground on her 1Lo and on her 3S<< (fall).

    Kim showed both excellence and consistency throughout the program. That adds up.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-19-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  8. #83
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherryy View Post
    My thought exactly. I'm not questioning Yuna's win, it was 150% deserved. But do you all think it's fair she can make such a big lead in the GOE alone that noone else is practically able to beat her? Was her program really about 15-20 points better than skaters from 2-4 places? I just want to know your opinion with at least short justification if possible. Maybe I'm missing sth, idk.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    The problem is with the scoring system. Do we really need 14+ GOE points to tell us that Yu Na was the winner?
    That is one of main reasons why ISU reduced GOE factoring down to 70%.

    And if you look at Carolina's protocols, she got as much GOE as Yuna. What this is telling is that Carolina and Yuna are just so darn good at their technical execution. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for that? Only reason Carolina's behind Yuna by 17 points is that she made mistakes. Had she not popped 3 loop and fallen at 3 sal, she would have easily garnered 11-12 points more including positive GOEs. Moreover, if Yuna's track record on GOE indicates anything, it is that quality takes priority over quantity which I think is a very positive input for the sport's sake as many youngsters are following as their goal in training i.e. Gracie, Kaetlyn, Liza and many more to come.

    Problem doesn't lie in the system nor in skaters. IMO, It's because there are top skaters who would have placed higher than Yuna or Carolina if the system didn't reward the quality, hence, to the eyes of majority, it seems as if the system is being too harsh on the top skaters with somewhat less technical quality. But you should know that the system has worked on that issue with the GOE rule and much benefited those skaters.

    For example, with the current GOE factoring, wrong edge take-offs take little hit as to the point that you're practically gaining 3flip's or 3loop's points with flutz and lip, at the same time not hindered by Zayak rule. Also, judges have been giving out +2, +3 at their will(well, to deserved executions), and that has led skaters whose strengths lie in non-jumping element to get more credit for their quality. I believed and have believed that skaters shouldn't be too scrutinized for their flawed technique, that's why I think 70% factoring is just about right for both rewards and deductions.

    People complained about quads/3A not being rewarded enough so ISU revised that. People complained about GOEs being valued too much so ISU tended to that matter.
    But there're still people who vocalize that those hard jumps are not rewarded enough. There're still people who are not happy with the way GOEs are rewarded to the perfectly great elements.
    When will this end?

  9. #84
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    One of the things that could explain the GOE is that it seems like Yuna's jumps have never looked better. Just look at her jumps in Vancouver vs. 2013 Worlds and to me they looked more refined, even her 3Lutz+3Toe. She landed them all with greater sureness and flow. Personally, I've never seen her jump so securely (landing on such sure smooth edges) in the past as I've seen at this year's Worlds.

  10. #85
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't have a problem with the GOEs in this contest. Yu-na got killer total GOEs because every single one of her elements was high quality. When you get all positives and no negatives, that starts to add up.

    Kim got an average of 1.38 on her 12 elements. Asada got an average of 1,01 on the 8 elements that she got positive GOEs for. But she had four elements with negative GOEs, which cancelled a good deal of that.

    Kostner averaged 1.10 on the ten elements where she earned positive GOEs, but she lost ground on her 1Lo and on her 3S<< (fall).

    Kim showed both excellence and consistency throughout the program. That adds up.
    ITA. Yuna was that good with perfection but others couldn't just do that. One should really think about how Mao and Carolina would have scored if they went clean not when they made several, very visible mistakes.

  11. #86
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    THE WHOLE POST
    Thank you for the reports!

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't have a problem with the GOEs in this contest. Yu-na got killer total GOEs because every single one of her elements was high quality. When you get all positives and no negatives, that starts to add up.

    Kim got an average of 1.38 on her 12 elements. Asada got an average of 1,01 on the 8 elements that she got positive GOEs for. But she had four elements with negative GOEs, which cancelled a good deal of that.

    Kostner averaged 1.10 on the ten elements where she earned positive GOEs, but she lost ground on her 1Lo and on her 3S<< (fall).

    Kim showed both excellence and consistency throughout the program. That adds up.

    Agreed.
    Also, scores are never just about deciding a winner. Poundings happen regardless of the sport being played. This isn't a little league game where team A is leading the game 10-2 against team B, and the game is ended after the sixth inning in order to spare the feelings of team B's players (and more likely, the parents). Sometimes the winners win by a very wide margin. Sometimes they don't.

    http://www.nba.com/games/20130318/BK...s=iref:nbahpgt[0021200997] ...ouch?
    http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index...mlb_1&mode=box ....another ouch?

    for a more dramatic example....
    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...mpionship-game

    lol

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    That is one of main reasons why ISU reduced GOE factoring down to 70%.

    And if you look at Carolina's protocols, she got as much GOE as Yuna. What this is telling is that Carolina and Yuna are just so darn good at their technical execution. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for that? Only reason Carolina's behind Yuna by 17 points is that she made mistakes. Had she not popped 3 loop and fallen at 3 sal, she would have easily garnered 11-12 points more including positive GOEs. Moreover, if Yuna's track record on GOE indicates anything, it is that quality takes priority over quantity which I think is a very positive input for the sport's sake as many youngsters are following as their goal in training i.e. Gracie, Kaetlyn, Liza and many more to come.

    Problem doesn't lie in the system nor in skaters. IMO, It's because there are top skaters who would have placed higher than Yuna or Carolina if the system didn't reward the quality, hence, to the eyes of majority, it seems as if the system is being too harsh on the top skaters with somewhat less technical quality. But you should know that the system has worked on that issue with the GOE rule and much benefited those skaters.

    For example, with the current GOE factoring, wrong edge take-offs take little hit as to the point that you're practically gaining 3flip's or 3loop's points with flutz and lip, at the same time not hindered by Zayak rule. Also, judges have been giving out +2, +3 at their will(well, to deserved executions), and that has led skaters whose strengths lie in non-jumping element to get more credit for their quality. I believed and have believed that skaters shouldn't be too scrutinized for their flawed technique, that's why I think 70% factoring is just about right for both rewards and deductions.

    People complained about quads/3A not being rewarded enough so ISU revised that. People complained about GOEs being valued too much so ISU tended to that matter.
    But there're still people who vocalize that those hard jumps are not rewarded enough. There're still people who are not happy with the way GOEs are rewarded to the perfectly great elements.
    When will this end?
    A jump is either good or it isn't. A ranking system would take care of whose jumps are better, assuming all are completed. Yu Na's jumps are very good--I think she is the second best ladies jumper in the history of the sport, after Midori Ito--but overall, she is not as superior to the other top ladies as her scores would reflect. She doesn't do a 3-loop and she garners points--including GOEs--for things like 2A-2T-2T, that would have been viewed as too easy to substitute for a triple under the old system. I have no doubt that she would still do very well under a system that didn't give bonus points and she might even be challenged to do 7 triples instead of 6.

  14. #89
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    overall, she is not as superior to the other top ladies as her scores would reflect.
    For this free skate program? As a whole package? Sure, I think her free skate was definitely superior overall. Isn't it what it's supposed to measure? This particular program? GoE reflects how her components were carried out for this free skate, and she killed every single element. It's not as if she was better at every element compared to other top skaters -- Mao had higher GoEs for things like step sequence, and so did Carolina, and at least one of Carolina's jumps got a GoE as high as Yuna's. Yuna got her GoEs built up, sure, because she skated clean and delivered a high level quality program, but the top skaters an their GoEs on average are close. As others already said, clean and completeness of the program do add up, and only if Carolina or Mao did clean programs, theirs would be on a similar level as Yuna's because they would have been rewarded for their efforts, and then we would've seen more of an even reflection of their levels. They didn't. Kim did.

    So, to compensate for that, we lower GoE again? I'm not sure how that helps the situation. Kim does have an edge because she tends to create jump sequences (Ina Bauer for instance) with higher degrees of difficulty, and she carries them out beautifully because she obviously wants higher GOEs. Why would anyone bother to make a jump more difficult if you wouldn't be awarded for quality? Why would they want to try to go for a beautifully clean program with difficult elements, then? Lowering GOEs even more? That would probably get every female skater to scamp around to learn 3A, because that's the only jump left whose reward is high enough and by that point the quality of the other elements wouldn't end up mattering as much. And in that case, I don't see anyone other than Asada doing better programs than they are right now, and that's worse than Yuna getting high scores than anyone else when she goes clean. I would rather see everyone else trying to clean programs than vice versa.

  15. #90
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    I do think jump GOE's should be lowered and a "full complement of triples" bonus added to skaters who attempt and land all standard triples (or quads.) But, this has been discussed elsewhere and I don't know if this is the best thread for a revival of the topic.

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