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Thread: Yuna Kim - 2013 version

  1. #106
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    Superior, yes, just not 20 points superior. She also didn't deserve any 10s in her PCS, in my opinion. She is very, very good--I'm not disputing that. But it is her jumps that set her apart. Anyone can see that without GOEs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    She definitely deserved +GOE on all of her elements, but the amount was too much. Her 3Sal jumps are +1 GOE worthy, not any more than that. Her 2Axel+2Toe+2Loop was +1 worthy. Her spins could even really just get +1 GOE and that would be fair. Those elements got a whole heaping amount of +2 GOE's, and some +3's too (no way did that Choreography Step Sequence or last 2Axel deserve +3 either). That's uncalled for.
    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    YuNa was given massive GOE's and a couple 10.0's in PCS--inflated, yes--because she was the last to skate and judges knew it wouldn't matter what they gave her; she was going to win and she was the only one who went clean in the final flight so it was time to go crazy.

    I am almost certain if it was much closer, they would have been more measured in the scores.
    I think this is a consequence -- and flaw -- of the IJS. The scoring system pushes the judges to pile on the points for the person that they thought skated the best.

    Take Patrick Chan, for instance. Under 6.0, if you were a judge you might decide that overall, despite the errors, Patrick skated the best and deserved to win. So you give him your first-place ordinal. All straightforward and aboveboard. If other judges disagree, so be it. You have done all you can.

    But with the CoP, if you think Patrick skated the best and deserves to win, then you have to make sure it comes out that way by your marks. Who knows how the points will eventually tally up, with all the pluses and minus. So if you are firm in your conviction, your only option is to toss a bunch of +2's and 9.5s into the mix.

    In the case of a dominant performance like Kim's, this results in a 20-point win instead of 10.

  2. #107
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    I don't see any major setback that prevents Yuan from winning at Sochi.

    She does lack flexibility to some extent, especially her legs, but still more flexible than Akiko and Kiira, whose lack of flexibility is more obvious in their spins.

    She is very slim right now, I think slimmer than 2010, probably lose of muscle due to lack of training.
    Mao on the other hand, seems to have gained some weight lately, which may be the reason why she is slow in her spins but a little better with her jumps.

  3. #108
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think this is a consequence -- and flaw -- of the IJS. The scoring system pushes the judges to pile on the points for the person that they thought skated the best.

    Take Patrick Chan, for instance. Under 6.0, if you were a judge you might decide that overall, despite the errors, Patrick skated the best and deserved to win. So you give him your first-place ordinal. All straightforward and aboveboard. If other judges disagree, so be it. You have done all you can.

    But with the CoP, if you think Patrick skated the best and deserves to win, then you have to make sure it comes out that way by your marks. Who knows how the points will eventually tally up, with all the pluses and minus. So if you are firm in your conviction, your only option is to toss a bunch of +2's and 9.5s into the mix.

    In the case of a dominant performance like Kim's, this results in a 20-point win instead of 10.
    It is definitely a problem. I agree with both yourself and jenaj on this. It mattered less here when the best skater was the last to skate but it mattered e.g. in the Men's competition, and it will matter into the future. We need a better balance of quality, quantity, and variety, and of risk and reward.

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    I was surprised Yu Na did not top her Vancouver LP score as I thought it might have been an even better performance but that is probably due to some of the rule changes since. Her scores in both cases were exactly right and very appropriate. Some are only upset as their favorites will never reach those point totals even skating their absolute best (actually that applies to everyone else), but that is the reality when a skater is the best, and the others are not.

  5. #110
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    BTW much of the discussion is focusing on inflation upon inflation for YuNa's FS in London.

    The scores were inflated during the Ladies' FS at least as early as Gracie Gold's FS score, onwards. There was definitely a Worlds inflation going on. Then on top of that, YuNa got the "you kicked butt!" inflation.

    In all seriousness, I thought the judging in the SP was superb (except for missing Kostner's 3T-3T< underrotation.) Then it loosened up in the FS.

    Even the same judges at the same event cannot judge consistently in this supposedly objective scoring system.

    This is why I support jenaj's proposal to limit the GOE grades, to say, -1, 0, and +1, or even something like [-2, +2] which I'd favour. The less fiddling around you leave up to judges, the more a skater can determine his or her destiny. Like, how much gooder can a good thing get?

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    Some posters have said Kostner would have won the FS and gold had she skated clean (the protocals dont indicate this at all, and they are wrong but for the sake of argument) and yet some of these same posters are saying a perfect Kim was overmarked. Sorry you cant have it both ways. If her scores were such that even with a perfect skate she would have lost to someone who wasnt even doing any more difficulty than her skating clean, then obviously she wasnt overmarked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Man, that is one impressive mob! How great that there's a country somewhere on the planet that gives skating the respect it deserves.

    My Korean friends here get a Korean newspaper published in this country. He showed me that she made the front page and was featured with large photos on an interior page. Well deserved, might I add.
    I think the massive welcome and media craziness is more (mostly) about she is Yuna Kim and she is a World champion and has earned 3 spots for Korea in 2014 Olympics than how much the respect the country gives to the figure skating.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I was surprised Yu Na did not top her Vancouver LP score as I thought it might have been an even better performance but that is probably due to some of the rule changes since. Her scores in both cases were exactly right and very appropriate. Some are only upset as their favorites will never reach those point totals even skating their absolute best (actually that applies to everyone else), but that is the reality when a skater is the best, and the others are not.
    If you adjust for the changes such as GOE factoring and the elimination of the level4 spiral sequence, she actually did surpass her Vancouver LP score, even without a 2axel-3toe combo.

    Anyways, I think the judges scored her the way they did in part because she went last AND she went clean. She was actually the very last skater of the whole World Championships.

    In terms of internal consistency (relative to the marks others got in the same event) I would argue she most definitely deserved to be 21 points ahead over a two-falls plus one pop Carolina (sp+LP).

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
    I think the massive welcome and media craziness is more (mostly) about she is Yuna Kim and she is a World champion and has earned 3 spots for Korea in 2014 Olympics than how much the respect the country gives to the figure skating.
    This, I totally agree with.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I was surprised Yu Na did not top her Vancouver LP score as I thought it might have been an even better performance but that is probably due to some of the rule changes since. Her scores in both cases were exactly right and very appropriate. Some are only upset as their favorites will never reach those point totals even skating their absolute best (actually that applies to everyone else), but that is the reality when a skater is the best, and the others are not.
    Agree with both your posts, pangtongfan. Sorry, I have to disagree with you, prettykeys. I am not addressing here the question of whether the scoring system is doing the best job it can to minimize arbitrary judgments, although that is a fundamental and important question. The point I am making here is that, in terms of the difference in relative quality between gold and silver/bronze this year, the scoring was a pretty accurate representation, in my view. I think pangtongfan nailed it. Had there not been some irregularities resulting in the relative undermarking of Yuna in the SP, the points differential might very well have been significantly closer to the Vancouver mark.

    I also don't see the argument that GOEs need to be decreased.

    -as mentioned, GOEs were already dinged heavily not too long ago. Doing it again under the current circumstances smacks more of sour grapes than intellectual honesty.

    -more fundamentally, there is a reason that the Olympic motto is Citius, Altius, Fortius (Faster, Higher, Stronger). These are, when you strip everything extraneous away, the very essence and definition of athletics and sport, and are exactly what GOEs are designed to capture in the current system. Even a moment's contemplation should show this to be true and self-evident. When ordinary viewers watch a jump, the primary adrenaline rush comes from appreciating the speed, height, and power (delay, etc.) of it. It's not the savoring of the edge or anything like that, no matter what those of us who inhabit these forums may think. Now, I'm not saying the technical niceties are not necessary or important; I am saying that GOE is also, in fact, a form of technical difficulty, and, further, is one of the few things that enables a somewhat struggling figure-skating to maintain current relevance at all. I do not think that GOEs are out of whack. If anything, if one looks at things that really excite audiences and capture mindshare (particularly younger viewers), such as xtreme sports, I would argue that the athletic component is not being emphasized enough (vis-a-vis "base value"), if one of the critical goals is to keep this sport relevant.

  11. #116
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    As I recall, the decision of the ISU technical committee in 2010 to adjust the GOEs carried a double motivation. What they really wanted to do was to increase the spread of reward for quality of elements. Judges tended to give out mostly 0s and a few 1s and -1s. It was practically impossible to get a 3 no matter what you did. So they sent out instructions to the judges (via seminars, etc.), that they should give a wider spread in order to emphasize the differences among pretty good, superior, and wow! They redesigned the bullets at the same time, in order the better to guide the judges' decisions.

    But then, if the judges were expected to give out more +2s and +3s than before, the technical committee figured that they had to be scaled back by 70% so that the GOEs wouldn't overwhelm other aspects of the scoring. So now we have a spread (for a triple jump) of -2.1 to +2.1, instead of from -3 to +3, but at the same time the judges are encouraged to make freer use of the whole range.

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    I think the judges in London did an admirable job. Being a judge in figure skating is a thankless task, unfortunately, because no matter what you do some number of fans are going to blast you about it. As usual, it is a lot easier being a arm-chair judge than being the real thing. Maybe, just to stop the acrimony, we should get rid of official scoring and let every fan the world over vote for their favorite skater (like a "idol" show) and decide championships that way. Imagine the incompetent "champions" we'd get that way...

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As I recall, the decision of the ISU technical committee in 2010 to adjust the GOEs carried a double motivation. What they really wanted to do was to increase the spread of reward for quality of elements. Judges tended to give out mostly 0s and a few 1s and -1s. It was practically impossible to get a 3 no matter what you did. So they sent out instructions to the judges (via seminars, etc.), that they should give a wider spread in order to emphasize the differences among pretty good, superior, and wow! They redesigned the bullets at the same time, in order the better to guide the judges' decisions.

    But then, if the judges were expected to give out more +2s and +3s than before, the technical committee figured that they had to be scaled back by 70% so that the GOEs wouldn't overwhelm other aspects of the scoring. So now we have a spread (for a triple jump) of -2.1 to +2.1, instead of from -3 to +3, but at the same time the judges are encouraged to make freer use of the whole range.
    And if that is right (which, considering the source, I freely stipulate ), then in its own way it reinforces my view that the GOEs ought to be left alone.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    -more fundamentally, there is a reason that the Olympic motto is Citius, Altius, Fortius (Faster, Higher, Stronger). These are, when you strip everything extraneous away, the very essence and definition of athletics and sport, and are exactly what GOEs are designed to capture in the current system. Even a moment's contemplation should show this to be true and self-evident. When ordinary viewers watch a jump, the primary adrenaline rush comes from appreciating the speed, height, and power (delay, etc.) of it. It's not the savoring of the edge or anything like that,...
    May I add one little thing here? About savoring that edge... That is the afterglow that follows the rush.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m51s

    It is also the skater's opportunity to whisper to her competitors, "In Faciem Tuam, chumps."

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    May I add one little thing here? About savoring that edge... That is the afterglow that follows the rush.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m51s

    It is also the skater's opportunity to whisper to her competitors, "In Faciem Tuam, chumps."
    The bravura terseness of your Latin style is irresistable. The author of De Bello Gallico would turn green with envy.

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