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Thread: 2013 Worlds-Mens SP

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I totally agree. Amused at all this "Well this person is better and if they weren't a head case/inconsistent/etc. they would be here..."

    Uh, that's exactly why they aren't here.
    Yeah. It's just unfortunate that while Ross can deliver when spots for big teams are on the line but not when the big events actually happen. At least this season. In that sense, he's a bit like Rachael Flatt. When he skates clean he'll do pretty well, but when he's not clean, the outcome is like what happened here unfortunately, 70 points 14th place. His strength is his consistency and when that goes, the judges, at least internationally, are not going to do him any favors. He's also a bit like Flatt in that he seems to be valued a bit more highly by the USFS than the ISU, but in a way that makes sense because he has managed to medal at Nats 3 years in a row. Interested for the FS, I think Max could make the top 5.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Yeah. It's just unfortunate that while Ross can deliver when spots for big teams are on the line but not when the big events actually happen. At least this season. In that sense, he's a bit like Rachael Flatt. When he skates clean he'll do pretty well, but when he's not clean, the outcome is like what happened here unfortunately, 70 points 14th place. His strength is his consistency and when that goes, the judges, at least internationally, are not going to do him any favors. He's also a bit like Flatt in that he seems to be valued a bit more highly by the USFS than the ISU, but in a way that makes sense because he has managed to medal at Nats 3 years in a row. Interested for the FS, I think Max could make the top 5.
    Ross is a two-time GP bronze medalist, got bronze at 4CC last season and had a respectable debut in 2011 where he skated two solid programs and got lowballed because he was a newbie on the Worlds circuit. So it's not like he's always skating bad at international competitions.

    And as for that SP, he got level 4s in his non-jump elements so it's not like it was a total meltdown.

    Ross has always been a slow-and-steady skater. That means in the short-term he doesn't get the results while he works out whatever he's trying to improve (in 2011 that was the 3A; this year it's the 4S and his choreography/PCS mark) but he manages to work it out in the long-term.

    Ross is more of a FS skater so I think he can move up from 14th.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Yeah. It's just unfortunate that while Ross can deliver when spots for big teams are on the line but not when the big events actually happen. At least this season. In that sense, he's a bit like Rachael Flatt. When he skates clean he'll do pretty well, but when he's not clean, the outcome is like what happened here unfortunately, 70 points 14th place. His strength is his consistency and when that goes, the judges, at least internationally, are not going to do him any favors. He's also a bit like Flatt in that he seems to be valued a bit more highly by the USFS than the ISU, but in a way that makes sense because he has managed to medal at Nats 3 years in a row. Interested for the FS, I think Max could make the top 5.
    Way too simplistic a statement, IMO. Ross is a good skater who needs to further develop his style. He's very consistent and he has excellent skating skills. The judges were really harsh on Ross here for political and subjective reasons, and likely partly because he's not coming off a strong showing at 4CC. Ross has improved this year with his choreography and he's managed to incorporate a quad, but the quad for him is not all the way there yet. I admire the fact Ross went gung ho to keep the quad in both programs this season, but clearly his major success with the quad has been NHK fp and U.S. Nats where he completed a successful quad in fp and a slight URed quad (or else it was slightly two-footed) in his sp.

    Maybe it might have been better for Ross to regroup and prepare solely for Worlds instead of gearing up two weeks after Nats for the high profile 4CC event. At that event, Ross did nothing but lose even more confidence than he seemed to slightly lose at high-pressure, highly competitive U.S. Nationals.

  4. #664
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    I expect Ross will pull up from 14th when all is said and done and I agree in general about what is being said, however, the whole nationals results/scoring in general I think needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Bear in mind:

    - the 6th place men's finisher at Nationals beat the silver medalist by 20 points at 4CC
    - the men's pewter medalist and 8th place finisher at Nationals beat the silver medalist's 4CC score at JW by 14 and 10 points, respectively (with one less element)
    - the 5th place lady's finisher at Nationals beat the silver medalist by 10 points and the bronze medalist by 18 points at 4CC
    - the 8th place lady's finisher at Nationals beat the 6th place finisher by 15 points (and the pewter medalist by 2) at JW

    Given this, I think it's fair to say US nationals results are a little questionable. Not to say that Miner didn't deserve to be 2nd at Nationals, but Farris did beat him on TES at Nationals, and then put up a considerably higher score at JW compared to Miner at 4CC. Dornbush didn't do well at Nats but beat Miner by 20 points at 4CC. Given that the placement of Miner over Farris at Nationals was due to PCS, in that case, Abbott may have well gotten 2nd at Nationals because internationally, the difference in Miner and Farris PCS is maybe a few points, but Miner vs Abbott is a lot more than a few points and a lot more than what the gap between the two at Nationals was. Zawadzki beat Gao at Nationals because of PCS too, then Gao scored way higher than Zawadzki at 4CCs, and even a little higher in PCS. Siraj did so well at Nationals because she got very high PCS, then at JW her marks were way lower and she winds up 11th with a sub-140 score. So, while it's not a travesty, the USFS just looks a little unwise regarding some of the decisions they make regarding team assignments and Nationals marks.

  5. #665
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    Additional thoughts:


    Richard has had bad luck for two seasons, but he has perhaps a better quad than Ross. Both Ross and Richard have taken serious hits to their confidence and I don't know what the remedy for that is except receiving more support and achieving more success and respect internationally. Adam Rippon appears to be with a coach who may be able to help him perfect quads, but we shall see. If that could happen it would be wonderful for Adam, but how steep an uphill climb for international recognition? Unless Adam continues with his new and improved 3-axel and gets solid command of quads and full U.S. political backing, it will be hard for Adam to make significant strides internationally. In addition, timing as well as depth of men's field domestically and internationally are huge factors.

    I think had Richard D went to Worlds this year and skated clean, he may have placed in 7 - 10 range in sp. And if a healthy clean Abbott had showed up sans quad, he may have placed in 5 - 8 range. With either of those guys paired with Max, it's likely Max would still be about in 8 or 9 place after sp. Ross was very consistent last season but he was unable to go to Worlds due to the lack of a third spot, which contributed to limiting his overall development. That lack of a third spot has significantly impacted the ability of the U.S. men to gain enough momentum and international experience and comfort zone with international judges. Nationals is always high pressure and highly competitive, with the added pressure of vying for only 2 spots on the World team, and then carrying pressure to place well enough to bring back a third spot while you are still just a developing skater. And then being faced if you don't perform well with the likelihood your stock will tumble and it will be doubly difficult to get back to Worlds.

    The lack of a third spot can be traced to USFS poor decision to gamble on not sending Abbott to Worlds in 2011 by the smallest of small margins when Abbott was clearly established in the senior international arena. That decision hurt Abbott and it hurt the U.S. men's field. This year, by the measure of a couple of doubled jumps Abbott took himself off the World team, as the landscape has changed so drastically and USFS seems quad hungry and as usual they also lack vision and have managed to trap themselves between a rock and a hard place with limited options for relieving the pressure.

    And btw, nothing changes the fact that Ross and Richard were egregiously dissed in 2011 for skating very clean programs as skaters new to Worlds. The fact they were new to Worlds was no excuse for low-balling them in the marks.

    Going forward, it's possible that Richard and Max will be favored more heavily unless Adam and Ross turn into a one-two judges punch of Patrick Chan and Kevin Reynolds ... seriously! I'm not laughing. For Jeremy (who I love), it's endgame, unless he reinvents himself with miraculous quads. Evan and Johnny are too mirage-like and old-hat (not to mention plain old at this point). That said, under present state of affairs, there's no reason not to believe that Evan and Johnny both believe they can be the U.S. men's Saviors of Sochi. Now, I'm laughing.

    And of course, USFS is having a love affair with Joshua Farris, and the love will surely continue. Jason Brown is quite simply a marvel with or without quad and 3-axel, although yay -- his triple axel is looking a lot more steady. With a 3-spot U.S. men's team, which is sorely needed, Josh and/or Jason would be the perfect fit. But, unless a miracle happens tomorrow, the U.S. men will have to fare with 2 spots again next season and go for broke to get that third spot to gear up strong and steady for the next cycle (which hopefully will include additional talents in Shotaro Omori and Nathan Chen). Meanwhile, USFS, please grow some political savvy, some vision and some judiciousness.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I expect Ross will pull up from 14th when all is said and done and I agree in general about what is being said, however, the whole nationals results/scoring in general I think needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Bear in mind:

    - the 6th place men's finisher at Nationals beat the silver medalist by 20 points at 4CC
    - the men's pewter medalist and 8th place finisher at Nationals beat the silver medalist's 4CC score at JW by 14 and 10 points, respectively (with one less element)
    - the 5th place lady's finisher at Nationals beat the silver medalist by 10 points and the bronze medalist by 18 points at 4CC
    - the 8th place lady's finisher at Nationals beat the 6th place finisher by 15 points (and the pewter medalist by 2) at JW

    Given this, I think it's fair to say US nationals results are a little questionable. Not to say that Miner didn't deserve to be 2nd at Nationals, but Farris did beat him on TES at Nationals, and then put up a considerably higher score at JW compared to Miner at 4CC. Dornbush didn't do well at Nats but beat Miner by 20 points at 4CC. Given that the placement of Miner over Farris at Nationals was due to PCS, in that case, Abbott may have well gotten 2nd at Nationals because internationally, the difference in Miner and Farris PCS is maybe a few points, but Miner vs Abbott is a lot more than a few points and a lot more than what the gap between the two at Nationals was. Zawadzki beat Gao at Nationals because of PCS too, then Gao scored way higher than Zawadzki at 4CCs, and even a little higher in PCS. Siraj did so well at Nationals because she got very high PCS, then at JW her marks were way lower and she winds up 11th with a sub-140 score. So, while it's not a travesty, the USFS just looks a little unwise regarding some of the decisions they make regarding team assignments and Nationals marks.
    Eh, but soooo. I think Richard was generally favored over Ross, but then Richard ran into some bad luck for two seasons which has sorely damaged his confidence. And, as I said both guys were majorly dissed internationally in 2011 which did nothing for either of them confidence-wise. Yet Ross managed to come back strong and steady in 2012, but no third spot available to go to Worlds, yet he still copped a NHK bronze, a U.S. bronze, and a 4CC bronze for 2011-12 season. That kept Ross' profile and his stock high with USFS who still very much supported Richard.

    Okay so Richard started out very strong 2012-13 season but then began to falter with his consistency. I think that is a side-product of trying to develop and effectively train a quad. It changes timing and rhythm and endurance and mental capacity etc., etc. Unless you click with the quad seemingly right away like Chan and Reynolds, there can be a tendency to struggle. In any case, Richard had every opportunity to perform well at Nationals and he might have except for a nasty virus which depleted his strength. However, he didn't have much to show for his efforts internationally in the way that Ross had, so Ross had more buzz even if Richard is considered by some to be more well-rounded. So what about the scores at 4CC -- such a poorly scored comp, it's not even worth discussing how the marks were arrived at, except to say it proves nothing. Like I said, Richard was always slightly favored and he ran into bad luck and Ross has been more steady and successful, and lucky until a bit of nerves and shakiness showed up for Ross slightly at Nationals and more so at 4CC, which remember was only two weeks later (Max and Ross had no time to be solidly prepared).

    Ross began the 2012-13 season with middling success (but very good programs) and then kapow Ross scores big time at NHK again grabbing bronze in a stacked field. Keep in mind that Ross successfully landed his new-found quad only in the fp, but it was a beautiful and steady fp and he was hugely rewarded in the marks. For some reason, Javi, who skated directly after Ross had a major meltdown which helped Ross win the bronze.

    Interestingly, I believe that a lot of guys, especially Kevin Reynolds took a look at the scores given to Ross' fp at NHK and said, "Damn, I'm gonna get me some quads going, cuz if Ross can get scores like that with a quad, then surely I can too. And furthermore, what if I can get 3 quads and not meltdown like Javi did at NHK!?" There you have it, Kevin Reynolds, 2013 4CC champion and sitting in third place at Worlds 2013, in Canada no less. And ahem, Kevin Reynolds is a talented skater but aside from suddenly superman powers re quad, he's not drastically better skating skills-wise than Richard, or Ross, or Adam, and certainly Kevin's not better than Hanyu or Daisuke or Javi ... the list continues.

    Josh Farris was NOT gonna do considerably better than Ross or Max at Worlds. Josh is better off being a Junior World champion and working his way onto the senior men's scene in 2013-14.

    U.S. Nationals is unique and figure skating honchos everywhere are slow to adapt to changing times. That's an understatement. I think the problems are not only with TPTB selections, but with the scoring system and with the entire structure of how this sport is operated. There are too many talented skaters who never get any meaningful opportunity to develop. In order for the sport to grow, TPTB need to think differently. It's not only USFS that lacks vision.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Or maybe skating after Chan made his weaknesses more apparent? Sure, Ross is the 2nd ranked male skater in the US, but that's only because a bunch of guys mess up a lot. Jeremy and Richard are definitely better when they are "on", Max is a tech machine, and skaters like Farris, Brown, Johnson are starting to come into their own, if Rippon hits his jumps his skating is always well-received, etc. The fact that Ross usually beats these guys is more an issue of the rest of them being headcasey, mistake-prone, or lacking the hardest content, so it makes sense. But Ross messed up here so it's no surprise his score or placement - he's the type of skater that needs to be clean to be competitive on this stage, and he wasn't clean, so out of the top 10 he goes.
    Yeah, but I thought falls didn't matter so much under CoP. Oh, I forgot, they only matter if you're coming off a poor showing and you happen to be considered deadbeat U.S. men and your name isn't Carolina Kostner.

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    Many congrats from me to Patrick, DENIS! and Kevin who skated brilliantly and deservedly placing top three. And kudos to Patrick who did prove those who had written him off wrong.

    I am super happy for and proud of both Daisuke and Brian to have skated so passionately and placed 4th and 5th respectively. They have been competing on the very top level of senior circuit more than 10 seasons, and time and time again they have proved themselves that they ARE still in the game. My English is not enough to express how much I appreciate respect and admire both Dai and Brian.

    My tiniest complaint is, if any, probably < call on Dai's 3Lz-3T combo. OTOH he was lucky that his 4T didn't get << I think, so it does not make any big difference overall in point-wise to me. Besides, Daisuke already compensated me with this performance full of his heart and his new costume . So I can live with its placement this time.

    Very very sad to say but since this year's Worlds is likely to be their very last one to compete, I SOooo wish to the skating god to make Dai and Brian onto the podium one more time. Best of luck to them in the Free!

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Yeah. It's just unfortunate that while Ross can deliver when spots for big teams are on the line but not when the big events actually happen.
    You could replace "Ross" with "Jeremy", and the statement would be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Josh is better off being a Junior World champion and working his way onto the senior men's scene in 2013-14.
    Exactly.

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Yeah, but I thought falls didn't matter so much under CoP. Oh, I forgot, they only matter if you're coming off a poor showing and you happen to be considered deadbeat U.S. men and your name isn't Carolina Kostner.
    Haha true. However, I do think NHK helped Ross at Nationals and that 4CC wasn't really that bad of a showing for him, just a more reflection of how he is normally scored and placed when he makes some mistakes. His score at 4CC was very similar to his scores at SC and the Salt Lake City event, however, because his two American compatriots beat him there by a lot, it does sort of make him look worse. And it's not surprising, because like you said I think a lot of people do recognize Richard is maybe a step ahead of Ross when he delivers, but he delivers less frequently as of late and because he happened to deliver at 4CC when Ross didn't so much, it makes the selection look a little questionable although undoubtedly Ross did skate a lot better than Richard at Nationals.

    As for Farris, yeah, I doubt he would do much better than Ross at Worlds, but he'd maybe do a little better, and even if he did a little worse, I think it would tarnish his reputation less than Ross's rep will be tarnished if he finishes out of the top 10 here at the end of the day, because Josh is a lot younger and competed junior internationally all season - so yes, his going to JW and winning does make sense after all, that I agree with, and the last thing we need is for him to suffer a Dornbush like confident blast while still a teenager, but sending him maybe would give USFS a bit of a "save" if the outcome isn't what they wanted. Whereas if Ross ends up finishing similar to where Rippon finished last year, it just shows that the skaters we consider to be 2nd best in the country aren't really that competitive on the World stage, or at least not unless they are perfect. So while that's understandable if said skater is a teenager just up from juniors, it doesn't look great for a more seasoned competitors in his 20s. But in the end, Ross and his team are the one's ultimately responsible for his final placement here, and if they don't like it, all it means is that there is work to be done if he wants to improve upon that and perhaps his PCS at Nationals next year won't be so high, as Rippon's marks were a lot less inflated this year at Nats compared to last year even thought he skated about the same.

  11. #671
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    No doubt chan should have won, but considering the fight he had to make some of the jumps, I don't think it should have been record breaking, I would have given him a small costume deduction-----and he's not the only one.

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