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Thread: 2013 Worlds Ladies FS

  1. #1801
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Many skaters take the first minute to get their big jumps out of the way. Mao's swan program suffered choreographically at Worlds because they basically rearranged her jumps dramatically. Her team probably just wanted her to test out next season's potential jump content so as not to have to make major changes mid-season.
    But it is not true that all her programs have lacked choreography in the first minute. Liebraustram had great choreography right the way through.
    I thought Swan Lake showcased her interpretative skills well. She expressed a range of different moods, from quiet to sad to exhuberant not just with her face but with her edges. I felt that I Got Rhythm also improved after it was tweaked with more emphasis on the slow part in the middle.
    In terms of Mao's musicality, isn't that self-evident? I love to watch her in motion. She moves her body so beautifully and delicately. I recently realized this afesh when I watched the Four Continent gala. Unfortunately for Gracie, she skated right before Mao, and I suppose her exhibition number does not hide her weakness too well. Watching them back to back, it was clear that there was a huge difference between them.

  2. #1802
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    Mao does have incredible musicality. She can be so graceful, powerful and fun so easily. She's wonderful to watch and really connects with the music!

  3. #1803
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Many skaters take the first minute to get their big jumps out of the way.
    Yeah, I think most do. But it's live by the sword, die by the sword.

    If the first minute of your program is, "Look at my quad combo-- tada! Now look at my triple Axel -- tada!" -- then you better hit. Otherwise, when you get into your actual program, you are already playing catch-up and trying to get the audience back on your side.

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yeah, I think most do. But it's live by the sword, die by the sword.

    If the first minute of your program is, "Look at my quad combo-- tada! Now look at my triple Axel -- tada!" -- then you better hit. Otherwise, when you get into your actual program, you are already playing catch-up and trying to get the audience back on your side.
    Ain't that the truth. And when your money jumps are on, your weaknesses somehow become invisible. I guess that's just how the human brain works.

  5. #1805
    Custom Title Morning Glory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    Mao doesn't need to fix her lutz. She should just focus on 3-3 or 3A.
    My guess is, Mao will not fix her jump because her current Lutz with edge call received 5.3 points(at 2013 worlds) which is practically same bv as 3F
    Rather than trying to fix, and fall on a jump, it's safe to just jump a flip and say you were "trying" to execute lutz.

    Smart JSF
    Quote Originally Posted by out there and back View Post
    This is what I thought too. Scoring system is kinda strange really. Skaters can just pretend they were trying~, and get some points.
    The differences between flip and lutz are not only edges.

    In lutz jump, skaters jump to the oposite direction to the approach. Just like "S".
    In flip jump, skaters jump to the same direction to the approach. Just like "C".

    So, if a skater jumps to the oposite direction to the approach with inside edge, it's a lutz with wrong edge.

    In this video, you can see Mao is drawing "S".
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLk6DBB7X60[/url]


    This is my understanding. Hope someone who knows well helps us.

  6. #1806
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Can't wait for next year to see how the new skaters compete with the older ones
    Hopefully Zijun Li gets more recognition next season. She's China's best since Chen

  7. #1807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
    The differences between flip and lutz are not only edges.

    In lutz jump, skaters jump to the oposite direction to the approach. Just like "S".
    In flip jump, skaters jump to the same direction to the approach. Just like "C".

    So, if a skater jumps to the oposite direction to the approach with inside edge, it's a lutz with wrong edge.

    In this video, you can see Mao is drawing "S".
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLk6DBB7X60[/url]


    This is my understanding. Hope someone who knows well helps us.
    Actually, if you are jumping, when you see a mirror image of S mark on the ice, you are doing a flutz. The correct mark for Lutz should be mirror image of C. The counter rotation of lutz suppose to happen in the air, not on the ice. When you do it on the ice, it has a change of edge to inside from outside and it is called flutz. You are right about the C mark for flip. All these are for most skaters who jump counter-clock directions. For skaters jump clock direction, you see the mirror image of what you see for counter-clock skater's mark.

    There are also skaters who lip, which means they have a great lutz, but when they do flip, they switch from inside edge to outside edge before take off. Lip happens less frequently than flutz.

    Why you can't do three or four flip and just call two of them flutz? One thing is that you need to approach lutz with backward outside edge, and at least try to jump off that edge, another thing is that the way you toe pic it is different too. Most skaters who do flutz switch to inside edge or flat edge immediately before take off.

    What makes lutz the most difficult jump? Because the backward outside edge makes you rotate towards the opposite directions of your jump rotation direction, so your body has to fight that force to make the jump happen. When you flutz, you make the counter-rotation on ice and it is not as difficult as make it in the air, and that's why you will get a deduction. For lip, I can only assume it was a bad habit and penalized for wrong technique. I can't see the benefit of doing it.



    Hope this help.

  8. #1808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilvskating View Post
    Actually, if you are jumping, when you see a mirror image of S mark on the ice, you are doing a flutz. The correct mark for Lutz should be mirror image of C. The counter rotation of lutz suppose to happen in the air, not on the ice. When you do it on the ice, it has a change of edge to inside from out side and it is called flutz. You are right about the C mark for flip. All these are for most skaters who jump counter-clock directions. For skaters jump clock direction, you see the mirror image of what you see for counter-clock skater's mark.

    There are also skaters who lip, which means they have a great lutz, but when they do flip, they switch from inside edge to outside edge before take off. Lip happens less frequently than flutz.

    Why you can't do three or four flip and just call two of them flutz? One thing is that you need to approach lutz with backward outside edge, and at least try to jump off that edge, another thing is that the way you toe pic it is different too. Most skaters who do flutz switch to inside edge or flat edge immediately before take off.

    What makes lutz the most difficult jump? Because the backward outside edge makes you rotate towards the opposite directions of you jump rotation direction, so you body has to fight that force to make the jump happen. When you flutz, you make the counter-rotation on ice and it is not as difficult as make it in the air, and that's why you will get a deduction. For lip, I can only assume it was a bad habit and penalized for wrong technique. I can't see the benefit of doing it.

    Hope this help.
    Thank you.

  9. #1809
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilvskating View Post
    Lip happens less frequently than flutz.
    Amongst ladies, lip happens less frequenly than flutz. Amongst men, flutz happens less frequently than lip.

    (I found out a couple of weeks ago when a poster did a count of no. of lips/flutz calls in men's competition this season. Sorry I cannot find the original post. )

  10. #1810
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    I'm not a skater, but from a physics point of view, maybe men tend to lip more because being on the outside edge allows them to be steadier and they have enough power to not have to worry about the counter rotation difficulties?

  11. #1811
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    ^ That's an interesting thought. I am not a skater either, but that flip edge is really shallow. Plus, it looks like there leg gets in the way of where they want their blade to be, or something. It looks really hard to me.

  12. #1812
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ That's an interesting thought. I am not a skater either, but that flip edge is really shallow. Plus, it looks like there leg gets in the way of where they want their blade to be, or something. It looks really hard to me.
    Yeah and when I do skate, I find it a lot easier to balance on an outside edge than an inside edge.
    But I can only do forward crossovers and balance on edges so what do I know.

  13. #1813
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    when you look at the fs it is amazing how many problems or incomplete skaters we have even at the top. What I mean is some of the spirals and rule changes with spins have stoped the over use of ugly biellmans and spiral positions but some man skaters can't do the toe, sal, loop, flip and lutz in triple format consistently without lips, edges and such. I am not sure why.

  14. #1814
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    when you look at the fs it is amazing how many problems or incomplete skaters we have even at the top. What I mean is some of the spirals and rule changes with spins have stoped the over use of ugly biellmans and spiral positions but some man skaters can't do the toe, sal, loop, flip and lutz in triple format consistently without lips, edges and such. I am not sure why.
    I'd say poor instruction/coaching and impatience and/or other issues by the athlete involved.

    If a coach consistently produces skaters w/ the exact same jump issues, I usually suspect that the coach is the problem.

    But if a few of the athletes under the said coach has the problem, not the others, then I suspect the impatience of the skaters (wanting to be able to say, "I can do a sal, loop, etc." rather than focusing on doing them properly) and/or maybe their biomechanics is poor.

  15. #1815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    I'm not a skater, but from a physics point of view, maybe men tend to lip more because being on the outside edge allows them to be steadier and they have enough power to not have to worry about the counter rotation difficulties?
    It's not a "steadier" thing at that level, they are using the outside edge to generate power. Because the flip generally takes off from a near-flat back inside edge, some skaters flip the edge over to an outer as the generate more power on the pick and are using the soon-to-be free leg to assist in the explosive lift off. Often times, the lip is a lot less pronounced than the flutz because it's MUCH more slight versus releasing the counter rotation in the upper body too soon to make the take off easier.

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