2013 Worlds Ladies FS

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Well, I made no such comments about Yuna the person. I was only talking about her musical interpretation and presentation of her programs.

Of course, I was asking for it with my line about the die-hard fans, but I've noticed they're the only ones I've seen who are so sensitive that they take any criticism of Yuna Kim as an insult against her. Usually, people appreciate Kim (especially after showing the rest of the competition how one should skate at Worlds in the LP) and understand her wins. But I just don't see the same kind of love towards her as I see for the likes of Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Volosozhar/Trankov, etc. To me, it's more of a respect and appreciation than all-out love.
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BTW, I am not a hater. Just because I am not fully sold on her doesn't mean I'm on another skater's bandwagon and want to see Kim fail or anything. Some of the more extreme posters need to understand that difference of opinion doesn't make one a "hater" or that their opinions are invalid. They're just different and no amount of ranting and raving will change that person's mind.

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I think uber-love is easier to portray on single skaters' fandom than pairs or dancers. Not just skaters, but overall. Plus, when it comes to rivalry of talents, it's hard to dig into pairs/doubles whose presentations are from teamwork - it'll be weird to be uber about which pair's teamwork is better than others.

Anyways, I don't think ubers are the ONLY ones responding to difference in opinions, nor are all sensitive either. People become sensitive when they start feeling the opposite party is sensitive or offensive, whether it's true or not. Especially on Yuna's style, which has a broad range in level of appreciation, people can fall in love because it's a rare instance of meeting their expectations or disappointment for how they don't see what they're looking for; it's hard to be objective when something that so moved one's heart is met with laments of sigh, vice versa. I don't think you're a hater, and I wonder if anyone accused you of being one - which is untrue. However, I don't think you understand why some go crazy about her artistry; lovers don't see how you can not appreciate her either. Both (you too) have expressed and responded with strong opinions, which may feel offensive depending, although neither have crossed the line (but some seem to feel so) just yet.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

I mean I'm Asian, and I have a hard time detecting it from Yuna. There's a difference between subtlety and reserved expression and what others may construe as extremely rehearsed and forced. That said, maybe I need to work harder in understanding Yuna's extreme reserved nature (it even showed during the Gangham Style performance during the Special Olympics. Watching her and Kwan were like night and day in terms of projection of emotion and commitment to the movement). I usually do appreciate subtle expressions as I found the Shibutani's expression in their FD absolutely appropriate given the theme and music, but it seems I have to work harder with Kim despite highly admiring her technical abilities.

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Let me take out the non-Asian part: Yuna's features are hard to detect depending on certain individuals, moreso with non-Asians. In Asia, junior/senior debuts were reported with how her artistic interpretations and sophisticated facial expressions distinguish her as a top skater, besides her techniques. I know a few Asian celebrities with similar features, and they went through the same thing too, although being in Asia, the opinion was minor. I was initially one of them (about Yuna, with her senior debut), but only after a few replays, suddenly saw it. It takes getting used to, not because she has limited expressions, but it's just how it is, and some take a very long time.

I'm not making this a fight. I'm just really curious why you wouldn't directly argue the ones who say that she's got TOO MUCH of it? I see this a more disputable point than how one's touched, nearly as much as if a jump ur'ed or not; they argue not only she HAS it and BEYOND. This is the part where I sometimes think it's only a matter of agreeing on likes or dislikes.

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Added: now the word "disputable" with her facial expression starts sounding tedious. Most people can't even see it clearly from distance, and it's her body and tips of fingers that do the trick. Note she didn't have much facial expression in her juniors, but she had that stunning body flow & interpretation.

Ven said:

Wow your thinking is backwards. You are comparing Yuna to other skaters when you should be comparing them to her.

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bebevia said:

Anyways, I don't think ubers are the ONLY ones responding to difference in opinions, nor are all sensitive either. People become sensitive when they start feeling the opposite party is sensitive or offensive, whether it's true or not. Especially on Yuna's style, which has a broad range in level of appreciation, people can fall in love because it's a rare instance of meeting their expectations or disappointment for how they don't see what they're looking for; it's hard to be objective when something that so moved one's heart is met with laments of sigh, vice versa. I don't think you're a hater, and I wonder if anyone accused you of being one - which is untrue. However, I don't think you understand why some go crazy about her artistry; lovers don't see how you can not appreciate her either. Both (you too) have expressed and responded with strong opinions, which may feel offensive depending, although neither have crossed the line (but some seem to feel so) just yet.

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:agree:

Ven said:

Her presentation on the ice is beautiful and natural.

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I would have to slightly disagree with this. Yuna has credited David Wilson in the past for drawing out the emotion from within her so that she could better express the music that she was skating too. A handful of other skating commentators have also credited Wilson for being the only one who can who can get Yuna to laugh effortlessly because she's so reserved. I think that he's done such a good job bonding, connecting, and practicing with her that the way she presents herself on the ice has become natural, but it's not something that was innate--not something that was easy to her at first. He had to help steadily and carefully draw it out from within (which I think is part of the reason why their friendship and respect for each other is so strong).

Aftertherain that may be true, I'm not saying it was natural to her at first, just saying it looks natural to her now.

When I see Yuna skate I don't see anything cold about her, nor do I see exaggerations. She looks like she's just into the skating and the music. And I think that's what I find beautiful about her skating ... she lets it speak for itself ... she doesn't need to two foot jumps but then smile at you to make up for it. She's just out there to nail the skate and then she does it. What could be more beautiful than that?

Olympia said:

I think that YuNa is rather reserved, and that part of skating doesn't come naturally to her. On the other hand, everything else does seem to come naturally to her, and she blows rivals away with that "everything else," which is fine with me. I don't think this means that YuNa is phoning it in. She just doesn't project emotions--even in off-ice photos. She keeps it in and makes you guess. Nothing wrong with being a bit mysterious!

For that kind of expressiveness, I look to Carolina or Mao. The way expressions flit across Mao's face is truly inspiring to me, so subtle yet clear, like a language of its own, in a way that I suspect can't be taught. Moreover, she always seems to inhabit her music.

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Different strokes for different folks. I personally love the expressions that are on Yu-Na's face, and I think she inhabits her music fully, particularly at these Words in the FS. Carolina and Mao didn't have that same impact on me, at least not at these Worlds live, though other skaters (Kanako, Zijun) did make a very positive impression on me.

aftertherain said:

I would have to slightly disagree with this. Yuna has credited David Wilson in the past for drawing out the emotion from within her so that she could better express the music that she was skating too. A handful of other skating commentators have also credited Wilson for being the only one who can who can get Yuna to laugh effortlessly because she's so reserved. I think that he's done such a good job bonding, connecting, and practicing with her that the way she presents herself on the ice has become natural, but it's not something that was innate--not something that was easy to her at first. He had to help steadily and carefully draw it out from within (which I think is part of the reason why their friendship and respect for each other is so strong).

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I think there are a few different topics that are being discussed here. Ven said Yu-Na's presentation is beautiful and natural. What's natural about Yu-Na's presentation? Her musicality. That was there from the beginning. What do I think Wilson drew out from Yu-Na? Her ability to open up and project to the audience. Recall that Yu-Na grew up skating in a country which didn't know/care for figure skating. She won her 4th National title in a near deserted arena with a tremendous performance that received very little notice. Starting out on the JGP, she had very small audiences. Note though, that Yu-Na had mastered Tango de Roxanne before she started working with Wilson. (Baffled that people forget about Yu-Na's Tango in terms of projection/interpretation/facial expression/emotion...it's as if it never happened.) It's not like she didn't have any ability to connect with the audience at all before Wilson, but certainly I would credit Wilson for helping draw her out further.

Personally, I think people are conflating emotion/projection/musicality/program here--they are not all the same thing. A skater can interpret the music well but not have great projection (personally, I think this is sometimes an issue with Kozuka, but I know there are those who will disagree with me). A skater can project really well/skate very well and get the audience excited, but maybe their musicality is questionable--are they really hitting all the nuances, do they really understand what they're skating to? How complex is their choreography? Ryan Bradley is a skater who I think has great projection, but he's more limited in terms of his musicality versus someone like say, Jeremy Abbott.

The skater's program plays a factor too. How should you judge the interpretation ability of one skater, a so-so artist with a great program, versus a skater who is a great artist but with a mediocre program?

As I said above, I want to be clear lest I be accused otherwise, it's totally fine if people don't connect to Yu-na's performance. Everyone's experience and perception of a performance is different. Sometimes fan bias plays a part in one's experience of a skater's emotions, sometimes it doesn't. As a Michelle Kwan fan, I didn't have the same experience watching Sarah Hughes' skate at the 2002 Olympics that some others did. If people don't like Yu-Na's program, also fine. But i don't think that necessarily means a lack of effort or interpretation ability on her part, that she's only "acting", that she's not expressive.

Hello, I'm complete newbie to the forum! I was lurking pretty much all the time, but the ladies' championship this year made enough of an impression to make me gush my love for it.

I agree with a lot of posters that the World 2013 was definitely saved by the ladies free. Everyone was quite impressive, even with the mistakes. I was especially taken with Carolina. She is such a fighter and such a graceful skater, and I don't begrudge her for the 2nd place in SP (even with the fall) after seeing her FS because that really proved GOE isn't coming from nothing -- she earned every point. Now that's a champion-like skate, and she came such a long way. Still, I hope it would've been more interesting if everyone was able to skate with relatively fewer mistakes. Carolina and Mao without glaring mistakes would've been just so wonderful to watch. I'm from Canada, so I definitely would have liked to see Osmond better in free, but it was her first World and the expectation was just plain unreasonable. (Though, to be fair, I think Mao and Yuna both medaled at their first World, didn't they?)

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Of course, I was asking for it with my line about the die-hard fans, but I've noticed they're the only ones I've seen who are so sensitive that they take any criticism of Yuna Kim as an insult against her. Usually, people appreciate Kim (especially after showing the rest of the competition how one should skate at Worlds in the LP) and understand her wins. But I just don't see the same kind of love towards her as I see for the likes of Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Volosozhar/Trankov, etc. To me, it's more of a respect and appreciation than all-out love.

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Aw, that's too bad. I'm not blind-deaf, so I'm not exactly unaware of the controversy that Yuna Kim seems to generate among skating fans (though no controversy whatsoever in news, broadcasts and even general public, if tweets and posts and news items are anything to go by), but hearing what Yuna gets from the generic public is respect and appreciation only for her technicality but not love? Because only the crazy fans really love her in the way the general public love and adore Virtue/Moir and Davis/White? This makes me sad. Such a gross generalization, pegging that one must be a die-hard fan to truly love her skate, to, as if her work isn't good enough to deserve love from the general public. She may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I thought she earned her title 100%, and that she was very moving, and that she was better than she's ever been in this World. She has a different skating style, and when she's on, I think the way she skates to the music with her entire body feels like an art in of itself. The TV doesn't have to do close-up on her face and expressions for me to see that her skating and her jumps are attuned to the music and portraying the music the way other skaters cannot always seem to convey.

If that's not good enough for some people, I'm not sure what else she can do, but that doesn't mean that the love she gets comes only from crazy fans. Yes, she wins titles over some skaters who other fans may consider more artistic and more deserving, but Kim gets her job done, and she does it beautifully and impeccably when others have failed. I think she's considered the best skater for that reason.

Oh and etd - if Kim was too business like and phoning in and yet can receive almost 150 and an absolute love from the crowd (or apparently just polite applause of respect and appreciation but not really love) that's really scary? I think she's damned good but nobody's THAT good. Unless she really is an android.

Welcome, Vegarin. Thanks for joining us! :yes:

Thank you, Mathman! (I have to admit, I learned so much from your posts while I was lurking, and I'm your--not so secret--fangirl.)

Oh, and while I found the ladies free to be quite amazing overall, I felt just bad for the Russian skaters. I remember watching their shorts when they came out. They were impressive, then, but this time, they just weren't. Must have been the pressure, but that's just too bad. I wish I'd seen better skates from them -- at least better SPs.

And Mao felt a bit off, too. She seemed a lot more hesitant with her skate than I remember, and just wasn't as fast -- of course, until the step sequence, where she was just amazing. Her skate can be so delicate and intricate when she's on, but she's so uneven that it's hard to watch her skate without feeling heart attacks coming on whenever she's about to jump. I don't want to mention ANYTHING about this supposed rivary between Mao and Kim (which I swear the media likes to exaggerate to the nth degree just so they can fill the space -- they were so cute in the clip where Mao and Yuna and Carolina were talking about Carolina's nosebleed), but perhaps Kim's return would motivate her to produce a more consistent skate.

Actually, Yuna's return should motivate everyone to skate even better. I'm very happy Kim's returned to competition, and not just because we got to see her free skate (which really was the best -- there really isn't anyone else I've seen who can float on her skate and jump with the music at the same time like her) but when she's motivated (as opposed to just making an appearance, like in 2011), she always ups the ante for everyone. Sochi is going to be amazing.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Yu Na Kim was highly deserving an award and it's just so refreshing to see someone who can deliver a program like that in the ladies discipline nowadays. That said, I wish I could enjoy her skating more because I find her whole performance to be lacking outside the excellent jumps.

She's so workmanlike that it's hard to feel any passion for her unless you're a die-hard fan.

I used to loathe Kostner's skating. I thought she actually pretty disgusting to watch in the past

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Huh...disgusting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHrWWWdp-g

How is that disgusting? Because she bumped Kwan off the podium?

Why is it that when a poster says something negative about early-Seniors Kostner, they seem to be die-hard Kwan fans? She started out with quite the bang, impressing fans and judges with her talent and potential, then floundered a bit before finding her footing again in the past 2 or so years. But oh, no, the usual "awkward, lanky" comments dominate when she is anything but awkward in that SP which is better choreographed than the SP of this season that fans who've had sudden epiphanies about her keep raving about.

So I guess I am actually quite relieved that we have different tastes.

jaylee said:

Just about the entire audience was standing up for her performance, many of them before her final spin had ended. 100x the reaction that she got in the SP. I don't think they were all die-hard fans.

If people aren't moved by her performance, it's cool. If people don't enjoy it, that's also cool--to each their own. If they don't like the choreography, no problem.

What I disagree with is when some take their reaction (or lack thereof) and blame Yu-Na for it (i.e. she's not trying, she's not emotional), or even more ridiculously, extrapolate that there's something wrong with Yu-Na's attitude (???). No one has to feel the same way in reaction to a particular performance, but the reasons for why someone doesn't react in a particular way to a skater aren't necessarily due to lack of effort or ability on the skater.

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ITA.

breeze said:

It is interesting how different people have the very opposite opinions about Yuna's skating. She is either criticized for not having enough facial expression, or for having over-dramatic facial expressions throughout.

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Of course.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Why do you think there was such a violent reaction after the pairs competition in 2002 (before anyone knew anything about the French judge)? Because Sale/Pelltier projected their routine in a way that better clicked with the live and television audiences than Berezhnaya/Sikharuldize (it also helped that Sale/Pelltier skated to familiar lovey-dovey music) .

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I'm Canadian, and NO, Sale/Pelletier did not "project" better and I object to your statement as if it's some kind of unanimously accepted fact. They simply had the cleaner, more generic ZzzZz skate. It was Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze that people found breathtaking...even my mother who didn't know a thing about figure skating or reputations called their programs "pure art".

Welcome, Vegarin! That's a great way to describe YuNa. I can attest that she has more fans than just the ultra-devoted ones. (I am one.) And I like that she has ultra-devoted fans! Skating is losing popularity, so why is anyone complaining that there are fans with passion?

I remember years ago, Michelle Kwan's sister Karen was still competing, and she came in fifth at Nationals. I remember that one of the announcers said that she felt that Karen's skating was "personal, almost private." I thought it was an immensely respectful way of characterizing her style of skating, which by the way was very beautiful and effective. It goes to show that there are many ways to move audiences. Everyone can take his or her pick. Those of us who are greedy can choose skaters in bunches!

It's a complete thrill that Kim is back. Like you, I hope she will galvanize other skaters. Like you, I also hope that another of my favorites, Mao, can bring herself up to a higher level, so we can see both of them at their best.

prettykeys said:

Huh...disgusting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHrWWWdp-g

How is that disgusting? Because she bumped Kwan off the podium?

Why is it that when a poster says something negative about early-Seniors Kostner, they seem to be die-hard Kwan fans? She started out with quite the bang, impressing fans and judges with her talent and potential, then floundered a bit before finding her footing again in the past 2 or so years. But oh, no, the usual "awkward, lanky" comments dominate when she is anything but awkward in that SP which is better choreographed than the SP of this season that fans who've had sudden epiphanies about her keep raving about.

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That program and the 2003 and 2007 SPs were lovely. However, she was quite a bit of a mess as well. She was never able to control her speed nor her movement. She was always so clumsy on the ice and I still have nightmares about her 2008 LP. Say what you want about Kwan fans being bitter or whatever, but the negative reactions towards Kostner for all those years were not just from Kwan fans.

So I guess I am actually quite relieved that we have different tastes.

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Ok.

I'm Canadian, and NO, Sale/Pelletier did not "project" better and I object to your statement as if it's some kind of unanimously accepted fact. They simply had the cleaner, more generic ZzzZz skate. It was Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze that people found breathtaking...even my mother who didn't know a thing about figure skating or reputations called their programs "pure art".

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Ok...I mean there really was no negative reaction to the results of SLC to the point where the ISU rewarded an unprecedented second gold medal and totally changed our scoring system to something that is on it's face more objective in order to appease the IOC.

There's a reason why the crowd in SLC erupted in violent boos and there was such negative media coverage. The whole French judge admitting to feeling pressure only added fuel to an already existing fire. That was hard for me to type as I also thought Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were deserving champions who were superior skaters to Sale/Pelletier with a much better routine.

Olympia, I loved Karen Kwan's skating. She used her upperbody very effectively and I felt she was a natural in terms of interpretation. Again, when I said I found Yu Na Kim cold, I wasn't saying that there was only one way of interpreting music or expressing oneself. Johnny Weir and Maria Butyrskaya are some of the best in terms of musicality and their styles were more introverted, but inviting.

I'm sorry that I hit a nerve with Yu Na fans and I take back what I said about the uber-fandom only appreciating her musical interpretation. However, I think the violent reactions to this, Ziggy's live LP reports, and elsewhere shows oversensitivity when it comes Kim criticism.

Thanks for the welcome, Olympia! I'm glad I decided to chime in and play in the sandbox with you guys. This is a lot of fun.

Those of us who are greedy can choose skaters in bunches!

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Exactly! I can't believe that, even after the amazing free she threw down this time around, Yuna Kim gets criticized by some for being so workmanlike! That only a die-hard fan of hers can feel passion for her skate! Wow, that's simply categorically not true. And then of course when you try to defend her skate, it seems you're brushed off for being a zealot fan, therefore cannot possibly see straight and say what's what. That's completely uncalled for, IMHO, and it just makes me sad that different skating styles cannot be appreciated. I think I enjoyed Carolina's skating the most despite everything (prettykeys, I'm one of those new fans, sorry!) because I feel like her experience and age and passion come through it and in my age I feel for that more, but even to me Yuna's work was definitely a work of art and one of the best performances I've seen, and I did almost tear up at the end because her skate matched the emotions in the music for me, and honestly, how anyone can skate that well and impeccably, I have no idea. And yes, sure, even if it's not your cup of tea, you didn't like it, that's all fine, but it's still a gross generalization to dismiss her skating as something mechanical that only appeals to her crazy fans when anyone with eyes can see the London audience so clearly absolutely adored her. Why do that?

I'm just excited to see such beautiful skates from a lot of top notch skaters and a lot of them are improving even more. I'll hope for perfection from every one of them in Sochi.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

That program and the 2003 and 2007 SPs were lovely. However, she was quite a bit of a mess as well. She was never able to control her speed nor her movement.

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I thought she showed a lot of control of speed and movement in the SP I linked to (which happens to be one of my favourite COP SP's...the only thing really marring it is one of the travelling spins.)

VIETgrlTerifa said:

She was always so clumsy on the ice and I still have nightmares about her 2008 LP. Say what you want about Kwan fans being bitter or whatever, but the negative reactions towards Kostner for all those years were not just from Kwan fans.

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The inability to do clean programs for the interval between 2007-2010 has nothing to do with her actual skating being bad, per se. Like Patrick Chan, who is also phenomenally talented and has skating skills to die for, many general skating fans had negative reactions to the high scores or placements they both got/get when they splat. Carolina is still getting high placements despite splatting once in a while, but now people "just get her." so that's OK...and many of those same people don't "get" Chan. (And talk about overdramaticized, put-on expressions, which Lori Nichol did not restrain herself from loading into Transylvanian Lullaby...but it's YuNa who still gets the brunt of the criticisms on this.)

Moreover, that you found her skating in general "disgusting" is something I took umbrage with but oh no, only when YuNa fans get annoyed about criticisms directed at YuNa do we get to be labelled die-hards.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Ok...I mean there really was no negative reaction to the results of SLC to the point where the ISU rewarded an unprecedented second gold medal and totally changed our scoring system to something that is on it's face more objective in order to appease the IOC.

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The heavy objection had to do with the fact that 6.0 was ALL about the CLEAN performances and while S/P was clean, B/S made some small mistakes in the Free. I have no idea where you think the major reason is simply because S/P projected better.

And, the IJS was created in order to balance quality of execution with complexity and difficulty (which once again, favours B/S more than S/P) as well as to try to appease the IOC and skating fans that they cleaned Figure Skating up. Much more so than trying to reward uh, projection because S/P supposedly almost wuzrobbed on that front.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

I'm sorry that I hit a nerve with Yu Na fans and I take back what I said about the uber-fandom only appreciating her musical interpretation. However, I think the violent reactions to this, Ziggy's live LP reports, and elsewhere shows oversensitivity when it comes Kim criticism.

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Lots of people disagree with Ziggy's opinions and reports on a variety of issues and they don't have to be Kim ubers.

You may call it oversensitivity; I also see overeagerness in some to criticize YuNa. Not Ziggy--I just simply disagree with some of his opinions.

For the record, I was there, too.

Only Carolina Kostner and YuNa Kim skate "large" of the top competitors who were there. Maybe not with the wallop of Michelle Kwan, but the difference in presence, aura, and polish certainly separate those two from the other talented skaters. IMO.

prettykeys said:

Lots of people disagree with Ziggy's opinions and reports on a variety of issues and they don't have to be Kim ubers.

You may call it oversensitivity; I also see overeagerness in some to criticize YuNa. Not Ziggy--I just simply disagree with some of his opinions.

For the record, I was there, too.

Only Carolina Kostner and YuNa Kim skate "large" of the top competitors who were there. Maybe not with the wallop of Michelle Kwan, but the difference in presence, aura, and polish certainly separate those two from the other talented skaters. IMO.

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I can sort of see this. But I don't think Yu-na gets treatment anywhere close to what Mao gets. After almost every one of her competitions this season, we had people saying "atrocious performance" or "queen of double loop" or "2 types of triples" while with Yu-na, we get her supporters accusing posters of being Yu-na haters when they say they don't think Yu-na deserves 10s for PCS. And then we had some posters writing ridiculous essays about the "Gray Swan" and "artistic dishonesty" in Mao's LP. Overall for Yu-na's more fervent fans there just seems to be a much bigger disconnect with reality; anything Yu-na can't do is quickly dismissed as "basic" or "easy" whether it's a triple loop or a triple Axel-double toe, and any changes that don't directly benefit Yu-na are immediately said to be from the JSF unfairly pushing Mao Asada with their billions of dollars in sponsorship money. I'd say the grumbling about Yu-na is probably a sour knee-jerk reaction to the craziness of a certain minority of her fans.

CarneAsada said:

I can sort of see this. But I don't think Yu-na gets treatment anywhere close to what Mao gets. After almost every one of her competitions this season, we had people saying "atrocious performance" or "queen of double loop" or "2 types of triples" while with Yu-na, we get her supporters accusing posters of being Yu-na haters when they say they don't think Yu-na deserves 10s for PCS. And then we had some posters writing ridiculous essays about the "Gray Swan" and "artistic dishonesty" in Mao's LP. Overall for Yu-na's more fervent fans there just seems to be a much bigger disconnect with reality; anything Yu-na can't do is quickly dismissed as "basic" or "easy" whether it's a triple loop or a triple Axel-double toe, and any changes that don't directly benefit Yu-na are immediately said to be from the JSF unfairly pushing Mao Asada with their billions of dollars in sponsorship money. I'd say the grumbling about Yu-na is probably a sour knee-jerk reaction to the craziness of her fans.

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Idk, based on what I've seen/read here and at fsuniverse, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that even if there's a technical hitch here and there, Mao's Swan Lake has been received as a choreographic masterpiece :/ And thank you very much for generalizing all Yu-na fans. I could say the same for Mao Asada's more fervent fans who apparently think that the KSU is buying Yu-na's "grossly inflated" scores while poor Mao valiantly battles against overwhelmingly unfair odds. There are unreasonable fans on both sides, yes- but to generalize the entire fanbase of one and then dismiss any of their words? Now that doesn't seem very logical to me, but then again, what would I know, I'm just a crazy Yu-na fan.

Lilith11 said:

Idk, based on what I've seen/read here and at fsuniverse, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that even if there's a technical hitch here and there, Mao's Swan Lake has been received as a choreographic masterpiece :/ And thank you very much for generalizing all Yu-na fans. I could say the same for Mao Asada's more fervent fans who apparently think that the KSU is buying Yu-na's "grossly inflated" scores while poor Mao valiantly battles against overwhelmingly unfair odds. There are unreasonable fans on both sides, yes- but to generalize the entire fanbase of one and then dismiss any of their words? Now that doesn't seem very logical to me, but then again, what would I know, I'm just a crazy Yu-na fan.

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Yes, but who actually thinks the KSU has any power? Maybe I am missing out on the more crazy anti-Yuna stuff because I don't speak Japanese. All the stuff I've seen on Youtube is in horrible English, far worse than the anti-Mao stuff; it's like the Youtube Maobots don't even put effort into their drivel. And notice how I don't characterize all Yu-na fans as acting this way. Most of the posters I've come across are very complimentary of both Mao and Yu-na, no matter who they like more.

CarneAsada said:

Yes, but who actually thinks the KSU has any power? Maybe I am missing out on the more crazy anti-Yuna stuff because I don't speak Japanese. All the stuff I've seen on Youtube is in horrible English, far worse than the anti-Mao stuff; it's like the Youtube Maobots don't even put effort into their drivel. And notice how I don't characterize all Yu-na fans as acting this way. Most of the posters I've come across are very complimentary of both Mao and Yu-na, no matter who they like more.

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I mean I assumed the KSU not having power was common knowledge, but like I said before, fervent fans will find some reason, no matter how, objectively speaking, illogical it is that their favorites are not winning. And idk, I'm not assuming they're Japanese, but a quick Youtube search yields videos like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5G74TyKpkw. Like I said before, they're are overly fervent minorities on both sides, but what's important is judging each fan by his/her own merits, not a generalization imo.

Boy I am getting tired of this s**t.

1. Yuna gives an exquisite performance.

2. A half dozen Yuna-haters here, the same users everytime, post "criticisms" to pick on Yuna, because they just personally don't like her for whatever reason. It gets annoying, because it's the same essential message every time from a same small group of posters.

3. Some Yuna fans get fed up, and make posts to defend her.

4. Then they label Yuna fans as "crazy" or "overzealous".

prettykeys said:

I thought she showed a lot of control of speed and movement in the SP I linked to (which happens to be one of my favourite COP SP's...the only thing really marring it is one of the travelling spins.)

The inability to do clean programs for the interval between 2007-2010 has nothing to do with her actual skating being bad, per se. Like Patrick Chan, who is also phenomenally talented and has skating skills to die for, many general skating fans had negative reactions to the high scores or placements they both got/get when they splat. Carolina is still getting high placements despite splatting once in a while, but now people "just get her." so that's OK...and many of those same people don't "get" Chan. (And talk about overdramaticized, put-on expressions, which Lori Nichol did not restrain herself from loading into Transylvanian Lullaby...but it's YuNa who still gets the brunt of the criticisms on this.)

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Obviously we disagree about Kostner. I found her to be really sloppy and uncontrolled before at her worst. It wasn't only on her multiple stumbles, but the way she moved her body throughout the routines. I find that now she's able to restrain herself from a lot of the excesses she used to be guilty of and her positive qualities (speed, edge control, freedom of upper body) to be much more apparent now that she's learned to control her movement.

The heavy objection had to do with the fact that 6.0 was ALL about the CLEAN performances and while S/P was clean, B/S made some small mistakes in the Free. I have no idea where you think the major reason is simply because S/P projected better.

And, the IJS was created in order to balance quality of execution with complexity and difficulty (which once again, favours B/S more than S/P) as well as to try to appease the IOC and skating fans that they cleaned Figure Skating up. Much more so than trying to reward uh, projection because S/P supposedly almost wuzrobbed on that front.

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Again, although COP was created in a way to sort of justify B/S's placement in SLC (which is a good thing) and reward elements in skating that were ignored under 6.0, you cannot deny that the vehement reaction to the pairs result jumpstarted the whole thing even if the end product would round up rewarding B/S much more than 6.0 did.

Lots of people disagree with Ziggy's opinions and reports on a variety of issues and they don't have to be Kim ubers.

You may call it oversensitivity; I also see overeagerness in some to criticize YuNa. Not Ziggy--I just simply disagree with some of his opinions.

For the record, I was there, too.

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Just check out the first few postings of the Ladies LP thread. All he said was that he didn't think she was as convincing as she was in the SP, and people jumped all over his "paragraph" about Yu Na Kim. This has been the norm on here and the other dominate skating forum from extreme Kim fans any time there's any criticism. Same thing with my post. You bring up the overeagerness and someone else says they're tired of the same posters "bashing" Kim over and over again. So...where is the line drawn? When are people honestly giving their opinion on Kim's skating and when are they just overeager to bash her when on-it's-face the criticisms are just a disagreement at worst.

Anyway, I think we're going in circles here, so I'll let you have the last word.

Yu Na's FS reminded me of 2006 Plushenko at the Olympics: Perfectly polished performances devoid of any emotion that truly deserved the medals they got.