Page 33 of 33 FirstFirst ... 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33
Results 481 to 489 of 489

Thread: 2013 worlds pairs FS

  1. #481
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by Colanboy View Post
    The problem isn't whether you agree or not, it's whether you understand where the scores are derived from. The casual viewer will not understand underrotations or levels, and this makes it hard for skating to thrive as a spectator sport and viewership.
    I think this is the case with any judged sports. Usually an error has to be a visible error -- e.g. splashing in diving, a hop on the dismount in gymnastics. But casual viewers won't look at subtle things like if a skater pointed their toes in the dive or went in completely vertically, or whether a gymnast didn't achieve a full handstand or achieved a full split on a leap. In skating, it's been a longstanding thought that if you fall, you lose, so to a casual viewer the immediate reaction is "He fell twice", so they should lose. Many casual viewers would see the Germans skate and think the only error was the fall on the 2nd salchow (i.e. they won't see the doubles as a glaring error, or the foot down on the 3A). They won't be able to tell when a lift was executed with a difficult handhold/entry... they won't realise Peng/Chang did a quad twist, they will probably think D/R's triple lutzes are what everyone else is doing.

    I know I might seem like I'm not giving casual fans credit, but I've heard many a time "I don't like skating because even when people fall, they still win. If you're such a great figure skater you shouldn't ever fall." Which is ridiculous to say because it's not like every basketball/hockey player makes his shot and it's not like tennis players never make unforced errors, not to mention ice is slippery and you don't get to take multiple shots to win.

  2. #482
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,028
    Quote Originally Posted by Colanboy View Post
    The problem isn't whether you agree or not, it's whether you understand where the scores are derived from. The casual viewer will not understand underrotations or levels, and this makes it hard for skating to thrive as a spectator sport and viewership.
    This is the case with any judged sports. Usually an error has to be a visible error -- e.g. splashing in diving, a hop on the dismount in gymnastics. But casual viewers won't look at subtle things like if a diver pointed their toes in the dive or went in completely vertically, or whether a gymnast didn't achieve a full handstand or achieved a full split on a leap. In skating, it's been a longstanding thought that if you fall, you lose, so to a casual viewer the immediate reaction is "He fell twice, so he should lose". Many casual viewers would see the Germans skate and think the only error was the fall on the 2nd salchow (i.e. they won't see the doubles as a glaring error, or the foot down on the 3A). They won't be able to tell when a lift was executed with a difficult handhold/entry... they won't realise Peng/Chang did a quad twist... they will probably think D/R's triple lutzes are what everyone else is doing. They'll probably say, "D/R had messy second jumps (i.e. the 3S combo), but at least they didn't fall"

    Skating is all about subtleties, and even that is open to subjectivity. So to be a viable spectator sport, casual fans need more education on the system, even a simple "if you do harder tricks, you get more points, so difficulty can make up for any errors that you have... winning isn't dependent on a fall, but rather the whole program". PCS is muuuuuch harder to explain... even skating fans ourselves debate on who has better transitions/choreo/etc. and if we dislike a program we question why the PCS is so high, the same reason we question why a top skater can perform a so-so jump and a lesser known can perform the same jump with higher quality, and still both get the same GOE.

    I know I might seem like I'm not giving casual fans credit, but I've heard many a time "I don't like skating because even when people fall, they still win. If you're such a great figure skater you shouldn't ever fall." Which is ridiculous to say because it's not like every basketball/hockey player is always perfect and makes his shot and it's not like tennis players never make unforced errors.

  3. #483
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Skating is all about subtleties, and even that is open to subjectivity. So to be a viable spectator sport, casual fans need more education on the system, even a simple "if you do harder tricks, you get more points, so difficulty can make up for any errors that you have... winning isn't dependent on a fall, but rather the whole program". PCS is muuuuuch harder to explain... even skating fans ourselves debate on who has better transitions/choreo/etc. and if we dislike a program we question why the PCS is so high, the same reason we question why a top skater can perform a so-so jump and a lesser known can perform the same jump with higher quality, and still both get the same GOE.
    This is the crux of the problem. Casual viewers are not looking for a lecture, and when they don't immediately understand the results, they lose interest. Don't get me wrong, I'm a math major: I love COP and dissecting protocols. But at the same time, it's hard to sell to my friends who aren't interested in breaking down performances into spreadsheets.

    Sports like basketball, hockey and tennis are much easier to understand. I consider myself a casual gymnastics fan, but even I can understand the difficulty of Mustafina's bar routine, and understand why her fall on the beam cost her a higher placement in the all-arounds.

  4. #484
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    19
    Pharmtech1, CanadianSkaterGuy, katia -- Look, I'm not defending the fact that S/S came second. At best it was a correct interpretation of the current code by the judges, which illustrates why said code needs further revision. I offered the Chan case only as an analogy. I do think Chan was superior to Ten with respect to the sort of things that get scored through PCS. Which the judges, at least, evidently felt was the case with respect to the Germans and the Canadians in the pairs, too.

    My point was that the boos in question were only indirectly related to disagreements over the application of the code of points. I think it's ridiculously unlikely that that crowd would have booed if S/S had edged out a non-Canadian team in the same circumstances, or, more importantly, if S/S had been a Canadian team edging out a German team. It's unrealistic to think that a Canadian audience would boo the fact that a Canadian team was given an "unjustly" high score, and probably equally unlikely that they would care enough to boo if no Canadians were involved. And as long as that's the case, I think we should be honest about who was being booed there and why. That's all I meant to say.

    The only particular reason I care about this point is that I find it somewhat embarrassing when foreign skaters are loudly booed in my country mainly for the sin of receiving higher scores than their competitors from the home country... I would hope people in other countries feel the same way.

  5. #485
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    This is the case with any judged sports. Usually an error has to be a visible error -- e.g. splashing in diving, a hop on the dismount in gymnastics. But casual viewers won't look at subtle things like if a diver pointed their toes in the dive or went in completely vertically, or whether a gymnast didn't achieve a full handstand or achieved a full split on a leap. In skating, it's been a longstanding thought that if you fall, you lose, so to a casual viewer the immediate reaction is "He fell twice, so he should lose". Many casual viewers would see the Germans skate and think the only error was the fall on the 2nd salchow (i.e. they won't see the doubles as a glaring error, or the foot down on the 3A). They won't be able to tell when a lift was executed with a difficult handhold/entry... they won't realise Peng/Chang did a quad twist... they will probably think D/R's triple lutzes are what everyone else is doing. They'll probably say, "D/R had messy second jumps (i.e. the 3S combo), but at least they didn't fall"
    I think what these controversies show is that the ISU judging system is caught in a dilemma, one partially of its own making, and partially a result of how highly skilled skaters have become. In order to strip out the subjective parts, the code of points has to become more technically detailed. Which makes it harder for casual fans to understand. You can rinse and repeat this vicious cycle as often as you like. As far as I can tell, any judging system we can imagine will rely on either a list of technicalities long enough that only die-hard fans and insiders will understand it, or will rely on the subjective impressions of the judges, or both. I'm not sure which of these is worse, but there will be controversies either way.

  6. #486
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    233
    Am I the only one who can sometimes hear people shouting during the side by side spins? Like "up, down" etc..Or maybe I'm just hearing things haha!

  7. #487
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by ffionhanathomas View Post
    Am I the only one who can sometimes hear people shouting during the side by side spins? Like "up, down" etc..Or maybe I'm just hearing things haha!
    You're not crazy.

    You're probably hearing one of them call when to move to the next position or out of the spin.

  8. #488
    One does not simply skate into Sochi MaiKatze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Any Other World
    Posts
    864
    Yes, some skaters shout out when they change positions in the spins. Never realized they do this before I saw skating live for the first time last year. You notice loads of little things, you didn't realize when you just watch it on TV. Now I also hear it when I see it on TV, because I know they do it.

  9. #489
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    233
    @davogt & @MaiKatze - ah thank you very much! I never realized it was allowed, but its obvious how helpful it must be for them

Page 33 of 33 FirstFirst ... 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •