2013 worlds pairs FS | Page 25 | Golden Skate

2013 worlds pairs FS

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The problem isn't whether you agree or not, it's whether you understand where the scores are derived from. The casual viewer will not understand underrotations or levels, and this makes it hard for skating to thrive as a spectator sport and viewership.

I think this is the case with any judged sports. Usually an error has to be a visible error -- e.g. splashing in diving, a hop on the dismount in gymnastics. But casual viewers won't look at subtle things like if a skater pointed their toes in the dive or went in completely vertically, or whether a gymnast didn't achieve a full handstand or achieved a full split on a leap. In skating, it's been a longstanding thought that if you fall, you lose, so to a casual viewer the immediate reaction is "He fell twice", so they should lose. Many casual viewers would see the Germans skate and think the only error was the fall on the 2nd salchow (i.e. they won't see the doubles as a glaring error, or the foot down on the 3A). They won't be able to tell when a lift was executed with a difficult handhold/entry... they won't realise Peng/Chang did a quad twist, they will probably think D/R's triple lutzes are what everyone else is doing.

I know I might seem like I'm not giving casual fans credit, but I've heard many a time "I don't like skating because even when people fall, they still win. If you're such a great figure skater you shouldn't ever fall." Which is ridiculous to say because it's not like every basketball/hockey player makes his shot and it's not like tennis players never make unforced errors, not to mention ice is slippery and you don't get to take multiple shots to win. :sarcasm:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The problem isn't whether you agree or not, it's whether you understand where the scores are derived from. The casual viewer will not understand underrotations or levels, and this makes it hard for skating to thrive as a spectator sport and viewership.

This is the case with any judged sports. Usually an error has to be a visible error -- e.g. splashing in diving, a hop on the dismount in gymnastics. But casual viewers won't look at subtle things like if a diver pointed their toes in the dive or went in completely vertically, or whether a gymnast didn't achieve a full handstand or achieved a full split on a leap. In skating, it's been a longstanding thought that if you fall, you lose, so to a casual viewer the immediate reaction is "He fell twice, so he should lose". Many casual viewers would see the Germans skate and think the only error was the fall on the 2nd salchow (i.e. they won't see the doubles as a glaring error, or the foot down on the 3A). They won't be able to tell when a lift was executed with a difficult handhold/entry... they won't realise Peng/Chang did a quad twist... they will probably think D/R's triple lutzes are what everyone else is doing. They'll probably say, "D/R had messy second jumps (i.e. the 3S combo), but at least they didn't fall"

Skating is all about subtleties, and even that is open to subjectivity. So to be a viable spectator sport, casual fans need more education on the system, even a simple "if you do harder tricks, you get more points, so difficulty can make up for any errors that you have... winning isn't dependent on a fall, but rather the whole program". PCS is muuuuuch harder to explain... even skating fans ourselves debate on who has better transitions/choreo/etc. and if we dislike a program we question why the PCS is so high, the same reason we question why a top skater can perform a so-so jump and a lesser known can perform the same jump with higher quality, and still both get the same GOE.

I know I might seem like I'm not giving casual fans credit, but I've heard many a time "I don't like skating because even when people fall, they still win. If you're such a great figure skater you shouldn't ever fall." Which is ridiculous to say because it's not like every basketball/hockey player is always perfect and makes his shot and it's not like tennis players never make unforced errors. :sarcasm:
 

Colanboy

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Skating is all about subtleties, and even that is open to subjectivity. So to be a viable spectator sport, casual fans need more education on the system, even a simple "if you do harder tricks, you get more points, so difficulty can make up for any errors that you have... winning isn't dependent on a fall, but rather the whole program". PCS is muuuuuch harder to explain... even skating fans ourselves debate on who has better transitions/choreo/etc. and if we dislike a program we question why the PCS is so high, the same reason we question why a top skater can perform a so-so jump and a lesser known can perform the same jump with higher quality, and still both get the same GOE.

This is the crux of the problem. Casual viewers are not looking for a lecture, and when they don't immediately understand the results, they lose interest. Don't get me wrong, I'm a math major: I love COP and dissecting protocols. But at the same time, it's hard to sell to my friends who aren't interested in breaking down performances into spreadsheets.

Sports like basketball, hockey and tennis are much easier to understand. I consider myself a casual gymnastics fan, but even I can understand the difficulty of Mustafina's bar routine, and understand why her fall on the beam cost her a higher placement in the all-arounds.
 

davogt

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Pharmtech1, CanadianSkaterGuy, katia -- Look, I'm not defending the fact that S/S came second. At best it was a correct interpretation of the current code by the judges, which illustrates why said code needs further revision. I offered the Chan case only as an analogy. I do think Chan was superior to Ten with respect to the sort of things that get scored through PCS. Which the judges, at least, evidently felt was the case with respect to the Germans and the Canadians in the pairs, too.

My point was that the boos in question were only indirectly related to disagreements over the application of the code of points. I think it's ridiculously unlikely that that crowd would have booed if S/S had edged out a non-Canadian team in the same circumstances, or, more importantly, if S/S had been a Canadian team edging out a German team. It's unrealistic to think that a Canadian audience would boo the fact that a Canadian team was given an "unjustly" high score, and probably equally unlikely that they would care enough to boo if no Canadians were involved. And as long as that's the case, I think we should be honest about who was being booed there and why. That's all I meant to say.

The only particular reason I care about this point is that I find it somewhat embarrassing when foreign skaters are loudly booed in my country mainly for the sin of receiving higher scores than their competitors from the home country... I would hope people in other countries feel the same way.
 

davogt

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
This is the case with any judged sports. Usually an error has to be a visible error -- e.g. splashing in diving, a hop on the dismount in gymnastics. But casual viewers won't look at subtle things like if a diver pointed their toes in the dive or went in completely vertically, or whether a gymnast didn't achieve a full handstand or achieved a full split on a leap. In skating, it's been a longstanding thought that if you fall, you lose, so to a casual viewer the immediate reaction is "He fell twice, so he should lose". Many casual viewers would see the Germans skate and think the only error was the fall on the 2nd salchow (i.e. they won't see the doubles as a glaring error, or the foot down on the 3A). They won't be able to tell when a lift was executed with a difficult handhold/entry... they won't realise Peng/Chang did a quad twist... they will probably think D/R's triple lutzes are what everyone else is doing. They'll probably say, "D/R had messy second jumps (i.e. the 3S combo), but at least they didn't fall"

I think what these controversies show is that the ISU judging system is caught in a dilemma, one partially of its own making, and partially a result of how highly skilled skaters have become. In order to strip out the subjective parts, the code of points has to become more technically detailed. Which makes it harder for casual fans to understand. You can rinse and repeat this vicious cycle as often as you like. As far as I can tell, any judging system we can imagine will rely on either a list of technicalities long enough that only die-hard fans and insiders will understand it, or will rely on the subjective impressions of the judges, or both. I'm not sure which of these is worse, but there will be controversies either way.
 

ffionhanathomas

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Am I the only one who can sometimes hear people shouting during the side by side spins? Like "up, down" etc..Or maybe I'm just hearing things haha!
 

davogt

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Am I the only one who can sometimes hear people shouting during the side by side spins? Like "up, down" etc..Or maybe I'm just hearing things haha!

You're not crazy.

You're probably hearing one of them call when to move to the next position or out of the spin.
 

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Yes, some skaters shout out when they change positions in the spins. Never realized they do this before I saw skating live for the first time last year. You notice loads of little things, you didn't realize when you just watch it on TV. Now I also hear it when I see it on TV, because I know they do it.
 

ffionhanathomas

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
@davogt & @MaiKatze - ah thank you very much! I never realized it was allowed, but its obvious how helpful it must be for them :)
 
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