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Thread: 2013 Worlds Men LP

  1. #1111
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    bekalc and Robeye - I totally see where you are both coming from and I personally think that quality should be rewarded over difficulty.

    It's extremely difficult to strike the right balance, though. I would definitely support changes in this respect but very cautious ones so we don't end up with no risks being taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    And as for impossible to find a skater who gives everything cleanish programs, good spins, steps and jumps, quads. Well Ten provided us this. He wasn't perfect it wasn't the most beautiful performance I had ever seen. But it was a great all around skate. That's enough for me.
    It was a really safe, bland, unimaginative, generic program though. Both SP and FS. He skated well and it flowed and it was pleasing to the eye but meh.

    It goes both ways. If you want the judges to mark correctly and not overmark Chan just because he's Chan, then they should also mark Ten correctly and not mark him highly on things like TR and CH just because he skated well and landed his jumps.

    And whilst people are saying Chan should have been trashed on PE for a performance that weak (which is true), Ten did not deserve very high PE either since he didn't extend his movements properly, didn't reflect the character of the music with his movement that well and didn't show a lot of projection or attack. It was all a little lukewarm.

  2. #1112
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    And this sums up the issue really well. You can never please everybody and there are serious consequences to any potential changes.

    I mean if there was a massive deduction for falls introduced, next year everybody would be complaining about the system being stupid and wrong because nobody does difficult jumps any more.
    To me, this says that the problem is not with the annual tweaks but with the basic concept itself. If figure skating is not "that kind of sport'" (the kind where your performance is measured according to what you deliver on that particular evening), then why go through the charade of assigning points as if it is?

    Here is where 6.0 is better, IMHO. Ordinal scoring says with honesty and candor, this skater won because a majority of judges felt that he skated the best, in terms of technical competence and performance values. No smoke and mirrors. People are free to disagree with the judges if they want to.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-16-2013 at 01:36 PM.

  3. #1113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, this says that the problem is not with the annual tweaks but with the basic concept itself. If figure skating is not "that kind of sport'" (the kind where your performance is measured according to what you deliver on that particular evening), then why go through the charade of assigning points as if it is?
    Because otherwise all those different skills that make up figure skating don't end up getting recognised and you have a situation where only a few things count.

  4. #1114
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    Chan's PCS is inflated.

    SS. 9 max. He's good, but he didn't show it last night. It was messy, he didn't show control.
    TR. 7. If you do a lot of transitions, but you failed the element, then the transitions shouldn't count as much. They made you fall.
    P/E. 7. Was not performing, execution was messy. The whole program was painful to watch. That don't deserve 9+ or even 8+.
    IN. 8.5. It was a good interpretation (not counting all the mistakes)
    CH. 9. Great choreography. He did all of his choreographed moves.

    D10
    SS. 8. I thought he was smooth, and effortless.
    TR. 7. Not much going on.
    PE. 9. Clearly the performance of the night. And my heart was stuck in my throat for the most part. It was satisfying watching him.
    IN. 8. Generic interpretation
    CH. 8. Generic choreography. Obviously better than Max and others who get high 7. So 8 is appropriate.

    So total, Chan would get 40.5 *2 = 81 for PCS
    D10 would get 40*2 = 80 for PCS

    D10 should win. Both PCS were inflated to insane level, D10 is never 87+ PCS skater. Chan was a mess.

  5. #1115
    Custom Title merrywidow's Avatar
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    So happy for Max Aaron! What an athlete. I'm still laughing at his hitting the boards the way he did & instead of collapsing on the ice he simply dug his left skate into the ice & pushed off. Max is exciting & fun. He is a breath of fresh air for US men's skating. As to the argument as to who should have won? I'm fine with Chan's win. I'm in awe of the depth of his edges & I'm not surprised that he can't always control them. Maybe the ISU should reinstate the old figures portion of the competition?

  6. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz
    This is true since the 6.0 era and many former greats have been the beneficiaries of this such as Kwan and etc.
    I dunno about that...when has the Kween fallen twice and won against people who were totally clean? For that matter, she was frustrated twice at the Olys by newcomers. And she went clean at the 1998 Olys too! That's what sucks about the current system...it's even more corrupt than the old. Under 6.0, judges had a harder time justifying unfairness. With CoP, they can hide it under the guise of a complicated point scheme that most people don't understand.

    I think a scoring system can only be fair if it's possible for an unknown to burst onto the scene, have the skate of their lives, and win, especially if the established skaters falter. Under CoP, that's just not possible, and it's really unfair. I don't care how much artistry someone has, this is still a sport and if they make major mistakes they should not win, period.

  7. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerio2 View Post
    I dunno about that...when has the Kween fallen twice and won against people who were totally clean? For that matter, she was frustrated twice at the Olys by newcomers. And she went clean at the 1998 Olys too! That's what sucks about the current system...it's even more corrupt than the old. Under 6.0, judges had a harder time justifying unfairness. With CoP, they can hide it under the guise of a complicated point scheme that most people don't understand.

    I think a scoring system can only be fair if it's possible for an unknown to burst onto the scene, have the skate of their lives, and win, especially if the established skaters falter. Under CoP, that's just not possible, and it's really unfair. I don't care how much artistry someone has, this is still a sport and if they make major mistakes they should not win, period.
    I think the only way "Chan", "artistry", and "much" should be in the same sentence should be: "Chan doesn't have much artistry." :-D

    Getting back into the flow of comments, I stand by my earlier comment of scratching this point piling system and finding a way to give greater weight to the long program. Messing up in the long program used to mean, well, messing up. Rarely would the winner of the long program lose the title under 6.0. Why not heavily weigh "being ahead of someone" in the LP (and SP, too) instead of having a system where someone may win the LP but only do it by 0.01 and lose the title to someone who was 0.05 ahead in the SP. I still feel that being better than someone in the LP should more strongly place you vis-a-vis that person overall.

  8. #1118
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    I'm completely saturated with the posts and viewing and don't know what to make of this competition. I don't know if anyone else is interested, but, I for one, have been more interested in the variabilityof the judges' marks (in particluar PCS) than the marks themselves. So I calculated the 'standard deviation', which is a measure of variability. The higher the SD, the more varied the judges' scores.

    The results below indicate that the judges are pretty unanimous (relatively speaking) regarding evaluation of Chan's PCS. Re Hanyu, on the other hand, the judges seem to be more divided. Interestingly, judges seem to be (relatively) more divided about Dai's choreo/composition and Interpretation.
    I hope it helps...

    ['trimmed' means excluding max and min points, as in the protocol)
    trimmed standard deviation (measure of variability of points among judges)
    chan ten hanyu javier mura aaron kevin dai
    ss 0.13 0.27 0.41 0.12 0.20 0.28 0.12 0.17
    tl 0.17 0.35 0.46 0.19 0.24 0.48 0.24 0.27
    pe 0.24 0.35 0.28 0.32 0.30 0.46 0.17 0.37
    cc 0.25 0.48 0.59 0.30 0.19 0.57 0.28 0.43
    in 0.22 0.28 0.38 0.32 0.13 0.53 0.19 0.47

    trimmed average (as in the protocol - pls excuse slight rounding difference)
    chan ten hanyu javier mura aaron kevin dai
    ss 9.11 8.54 8.25 8.43 7.75 7.61 7.82 8.54
    tl 8.96 8.43 7.75 8.18 7.39 7.11 7.61 8.21
    pe 8.61 8.89 7.86 8.36 7.79 7.50 7.71 8.46
    cc 9.00 8.86 8.14 8.79 7.57 7.39 7.93 8.50
    in 8.96 8.86 8.00 8.89 7.61 7.54 7.82 8.79
    PCS 89.29 87.14 80.00 85.29 76.21 74.29 77.79 85.00

  9. #1119
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    So much has been said already so not really sure what to add.

    Saw Max Aaron for the first time last night and really liked him! Yes, there were not a lot of transitions but I don't mind emptier programs if the skater can be entertaining. I think there is a difference between artistry and showmanship. I like Joubert for the same reason. It's a shame about his downgrades and the zayak rule.

    I wish Ten would have won. He was endearing and I found myself rooting for him even though I haven't seen him perform before. He's just so likeable. I like Patrick but don't like when wins have to have asterisks beside the name. His performance last night is just so odd. He opened so beautifully but then....

    I certainly don't blame Patrick for his marks. He did seem embarrassed afterwards. But yeah...what is the guy supposed to do? He can't say "Oh, the judges were way out of line to give me those marks". I wonder if skaters still have some fear to speak out against the judges. I mean, it would be like biting the hand that feeds him.

    I am reminded when Jeffrey Buttle won the 2004 FCC with a quite flawed skate. I remember him sitting in the K&C with a very confused look on his face when the marks came up and then shrugging his shoulders while looking into the camera.

    I just wish more of the men would have skated cleanly or more clean than they did.

  10. #1120
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    The results last night were really unfortunate, as so many have already said. To be fair, Patrick Chan's artistry in the FS was better than I've ever seen it. Good on him for continuing with his transitions and choreography in spite of his jump errors. There is a smoothness with which he interweaves his jump elements and connecting steps that's impressive to see. That said, he was way overscored in the short program- IMO you shouldn't be able to get a world record score with jumps that look labored and have wonky landings. He should have had 93, or maybe 94, but definitely not 98. I also think Chan was overscored tonight. There is no way you should be able to get 9+s in transitions, interpretation, choreography, and performance execution with as many technical glitches as he had. No matter how much a skater tries not to let mistakes impact their performance, falls, popped jumps and awkward landings are disruptive to the general aura of a program. As a viewer, I tend to lose interest/ have less belief in whatever the skater is trying to portray if they keep falling and climbing back up every 30 seconds. The transitions exiting jumps can't be good if you're constantly picking yourself up off the ice after you've tried to land and the transitions into jumps can't be valued highly if they contributed to your fall/pop/etc. Unless he was trying to make the audience believe he was a skater jumping in the air, rotating 3 or 4 times, and falling, I don't see how Chan's presentation was effective. He should've had high 7s/ low 8s maximum for everything except skating skills (which are justifiably higher).

    I think Ten was overscored on PCS. He did well tonight, but to me he's in the same league as a Fernandez or a Hanyu presentation-wise- a wonderful skater committed to choreography and interpretation, but not spellbinding like Takahashi or Jeremy Abbott. I think 9s are a bit high for him as well. But because of Chanflation, the judges had to give Denis credit for what he did somehow. He also had the performance of his life, technically and artistically.

    Ten should be the gold medalist and Chan should be second. The rest of the placements seemed okay to me, but I'll admit that I didn't watch Reynolds or Joubert.

    Also, can I just say that I think Chan's attitude is as bad as ever. I saw his comments about jumps not being the end-all be-all and that "skating reflects your entire week and short program". Maybe he's being honest, but I think it's douchey to claim that you were anything but fortunate to win if you skated the way he did tonight. And he's "saving it for the Olympics"? Really?!? Ugh.

  11. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeReveur View Post
    I think the only way "Chan", "artistry", and "much" should be in the same sentence should be: "Chan doesn't have much artistry." :-D

    Getting back into the flow of comments, I stand by my earlier comment of scratching this point piling system and finding a way to give greater weight to the long program. Messing up in the long program used to mean, well, messing up. Rarely would the winner of the long program lose the title under 6.0. Why not heavily weigh "being ahead of someone" in the LP (and SP, too) instead of having a system where someone may win the LP but only do it by 0.01 and lose the title to someone who was 0.05 ahead in the SP. I still feel that being better than someone in the LP should more strongly place you vis-a-vis that person overall.
    Touché about Chan's artistry I think that's a great idea to somehow give ordinals more weight than decimal places. A SP lead shouldn't be so insurmountable that there's no point in even having a LP competition.

  12. #1122
    Custom Title Mao88's Avatar
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    MEN'S FREE SKATE - RESULT & VIDEOS (Updated)

    1. Patrick CHAN (CAN) - 267.78 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, Medal Ceremony, Interview
    2. Denis TEN (KAZ) - 266.48 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    3. Javier FERNANDEZ (ESP) - 249.06 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    4. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) - 244.99 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    5. Kevin REYNOLDS (CAN) - 239.98 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    6. Daisuke TAKAHASHI (JPN) - 239.03 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    7. Max AARON (USA) - 238.36 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    8. Takahito MURA (JPN) - 234.18 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    9. Brian JOUBERT (FRA) - 232.26 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    10. Michal BREZINA (CZE) - 229.00 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    11. Peter LIEBERS (GER) - 216.84 Free Skate
    12. Florent AMODIO (FRA) - 216.83 Free Skate
    13. Andrei ROGOZINE (CAN) - 216.60 Free Skate
    14. Ross MINER (USA) - 211.90 Free Skate
    15. Nan SONG (CHN) 207.68 Free Skate
    16. Misha GE (UZB) - 207.50 Free Skate
    17. Maxim KOVTUN (RUS) - 207.40
    18. Alexander MAJOROV (SWE) - 204.29 Free Skate
    19. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL) - 192.19 Free Skate
    20. Viktor PFEIFER (AUT) - 189.44 Free Skate
    21. Tomas VERNER (CZE) - 180.50 Free Skate
    22. Viktor ROMANENKOV (EST) - 177.09 Free Skate
    23. Yakov GODOROZHA (UKR) - 174.98 Free Skate
    24. Justus STRID (DEN) - 165.23

  13. #1123
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrywidow View Post
    So happy for Max Aaron! What an athlete. I'm still laughing at his hitting the boards the way he did & instead of collapsing on the ice he simply dug his left skate into the ice & pushed off. Max is exciting & fun. He is a breath of fresh air for US men's skating. As to the argument as to who should have won? I'm fine with Chan's win. I'm in awe of the depth of his edges & I'm not surprised that he can't always control them. Maybe the ISU should reinstate the old figures portion of the competition?
    He is a hockey player so used to bumping into the board. Yes I think I became a fan after seeing him last night. He is the fastest skater I have ever seen, even though Tracey Wilson said the reason he can skate so fast is because he doesn't have many difficult transitions in his skating but still. It was very exciting to watch him just go. I just wish that he had a different coach.. I am sorry but his coach isn't known for teaching good basics to his students.

  14. #1124
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    So has the list for who's invited to the gala been announced/circulating for the mens? I'm wondering if yuzuru will withdraw considering his injury

  15. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by momskate View Post
    Poor Patric Chan. People, it's not his fault that he got the first place!
    Gosh, reading is difficult, most people aren't blaming Chan personally, they are blaming crap-tacular judging...

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