03-16-2013, 08:41 AM
I'm not sure if it's been brought up here or elsewhere, but here is my reaction to the judging and the scoring system in general even without having seen the men's LPs yet. Why doesn't the sport come up with some sort of system to give greater weight to the long program results? If I understand correctly, right now, points just accumulate. I think fans are used to the long program being more important than the short program and, by extension, they are tired of people who are not the best in the long program winning competitions.
I don't have a "perfect suggestion" for how to properly weight the long program, but perhaps one could start with the old ordinal system and work from there. If the ordinal system were in place, we all know that Denis Ten (1.0 for the SP and 1.0 for the LP) would definitely beat Patrick Chan (0.5 for SP and 2.0 for the LP).
Judges always have the power to mark in a way we disagree with, but I feel like this "accumulated point total" way of scoring is worse than the ordinal system. Also: it was hard for judges to rank skaters in the past in relation to others because of just two marks and there being a 6.0 cap for "perfection". Now, with so many different things being judged, judges theoretically "should" have the freedom to properly mark all components and then have the computer tabulate point totals without ordinals being such a heady thing.
Judging the elements separately doesn't seem so bad (TES is not "evil" in my mind compared to a 6.0 system) and I don't know that PCS is "worse" than giving some generic "artistic impression" or "presentation" mark out of 6.0, but I do think the way final results are tabulated is "wrong."
What do you think?
03-16-2013, 08:42 AM
We will never agree. All of us have free minds, our own biases, sometimes agenda, heck maybe even other influences. This year's world championships in me and well so far in pairs has not been a wonderful array of top level athletic and artistic skating. Having Denis Ten as gold medallist would not be a true champion. When I review his skate it was less artisitc than in the past and really his skills aren't up to the top men (Dai, Patrick, Fernandez, Hanyu). And technically he was no great marvel either compared to what we have seen so what no gold. Skating is a two program competition with pcs and tes. You make mistakes and you are penalized technically whcih may affect pcs a lot somewhat or hardly at all. Patrick was penalized in both scores and rightfully so but really overall who else was there for the podium or gold. Denis is almost like Kimmie Meissner but not really - kind of a contradiction. Kimmie won in 2006 wiht ht eskate of her life and amazing technical arsenal. Denis as much as many of us have loved was not an artisitic marvel and was not a technical marvel and wasn't even clean like ho hum Evan.
The scoring system is what it is . Patrick maybe needs to work on conditioning AND we know he needs a real coach. Fortunately those on these posts are die hards because all our bickering, or debating and discussion surely does no add to the credibility of the sport. Really the whining of SLC was a large part of the down fall of skating.. Yes 6.0 and COP hard to understand but diehards who are objective can see how the system work ie. B and S could be second technically but win because they were deemed best at artistry which even moreso open to interpretation under 6.0. Its like the law you may know someone did it but apply the legal test and y ou get a not guilty verdict ie. OJ Simpson. What a sport really is is applying these rules or parameters but if you don't understand those parameters (scoring system) well yeah the sport might look corrupt. Yes folks it said take off 10 points for a fall then patrick would lose but no you lose 1 for the fall plus goes. that is the rule under COP. You don't have to like it but those were or are the parameters. Moreover this year the skating was for lack of words poor.
the other issue why are people so hard on patrick. What about mao, Carolina, Ssquared who constantly are held up with mistakes - I do not hear the uproar. From the experts (judging community and commentators) patrick's skating skills are comparatively relatively higher than all of them who are top notch. Yet the uproar is a whimper. The Germans should be persecutued, tarred and f eathered for what happened yesterday. And Kostner has gotten away with some stinky performances even the one year when she fell all over the ice the judges held her up but there was not nearly the uproar on this board.
The attitude we suggest on this board does or can influence the public especially as we are so vocal. In many ways we are contributing to the demise of the sport. Whine but what is the solution. If we start penalizing jumps then we might e affecting the risk factors for jumps and who will try what remember it just ain't patrick.
Some of the commnetators explain the pcs and skating skills under COP how the results can happen. Sadly this year Denis was relatively clean but not really the wow factor of Hanyu, Dai, Fernandez or even charismatic Joubert.
If the world read our posts the sport really would be killed.
03-16-2013, 08:42 AM
Awww Plushyfan - that was expected.
Originally Posted by plushyfan
I personally think he doesn't stand a chance. The fact that he could do two flawless programs in the past is........in the past. The poor guy has had so many physical problems in the last year or so I'm surprised he can still walk, much less skate. I really feel like this Worlds competition has shown that youth is taking over. I'm very happy for Denis Ten and Javier Fernandes and the first medals for their countries. And there are some young guys like Hanyu in the ranks coming up.
For those upset about Patrick Chan......well, I'm not sure how you can cry foul about "home ice" and prejudicial judging when there wasn't a Canadian judge on the panel. Patrick's skate is synonymous with what's wrong with this scoring system. You get scored for what you do and not for what you didn't do! Under the 6.0 regime he wouldn't have even made top 10! Should he have won? Not for me to say. I thought Denis' skate was brilliant. But I don't get people badmouthing Patrick. He didn't score himself!!! I would imagine in his heart of hearts he's feeling a bit odd today knowing full-well he won a huge medal and didn't even come close to skating his best LP. I do think the criticism of his SP is unwarranted though!
And this will not be a popular opinion but I really feel it's time Dai and Joubert hang them up and probably Tomas Verner, as well!!!! This was a poor showing for them and Sochi will see them another year older!!! I just think it's really, really hard to maintain a super competitive edge when the body starts showing the wear and tear of years of landing jumps. I remember reading about Kurt Browning's back problems in his last years of competitive skating and talking about the force of landing a triple axel and what it does to your spine and lower back. No matter what kind of shape you're in - there's only so much you can withstand.
I've watched most of the youtubes of the LPs and it did seem like alot of the men were just exhausted at the end of their skate.
eta: Skater Boy and I were posting at the same time. I agree with alot of what he's saying. And it's great for "us" to sit back and dissect the scores point by point and illustrate where the judges were wrong, etc. etc. BUT......they have a very short time to make their decisions. They do have the help of technical experts. BUT - again - maybe if they had 24 hours to judge a performance they might come up with different scores. They don't! And I especially wanted to mention SB's comments about Kostner. I believe she's been held up by the judges more than anyone I can think of at the moment. So apparently no scoring system is going to be perfect but I do think the current one is better than the 6.0 scoring system where one fall could completely put you out of contention no matter how good the rest of your program was.
03-16-2013, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by invisiblespiral
I like COP, too. I'm more of a casual fan in that I don't know all the intricacies (nor do I care to learn :P) but I understand this system more than the 6.0 system. I like how there is more fluidity. The 6.0 system was so rigid. I don't thinks the protocols are that difficult to understand. As with all judged sports, the problems lay with the judges.
Originally Posted by FSGMT
03-16-2013, 08:57 AM
One does not simply skate into Sochi
^^Mmmh, Daisuke will end his career after Sochi. Can you really blame him to continue until 2014? It's not like he is a total disaster! Last year he was silver medalist at Worlds and he won the Grand Prix Final this season. Yes, he is 27 but I don't think he is in the same category of Brian Joubert and especially not like Tomas Verner.
03-16-2013, 08:58 AM
It's regrettable that this performance will go into the video archives as the FS of a world gold medalist. Chan sometimes skates great, but he is not imo a great skater. There are too many badly flawed performances in his history, no matter the level of his pcs scores, which i really do not think are being assessed properly when he skates as he did last night. The scores he is given seem to always assume a perfect or near perfect skate.
With the sport the way it is, I would do everything in my power to discourage a son or daughter from entering it, except in a recreational way.
There needs to be an independent investigation of the sport. There is no use in being abusive to Chan; he is not the problem.
I should know this, but don't. At the Olympics, does the IOC prohibit anonymous judging?
03-16-2013, 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Icey
03-16-2013, 09:05 AM
Imaginary, are there other sports at the Olympics in which the judging is anonymous?
03-16-2013, 09:05 AM
I couldn't agree more!
Originally Posted by ks777
03-16-2013, 09:08 AM
If you are looking at the protocols, you are not a casual fan. For the truly casual fan, it still looks like the judges are playing favorites--just like under the old system. And, in all likelihood, they are. PCS is used to rank and prop up and hold down skaters just like under 6.0. In the olden days, when 6.0s were rare, there was so much excitement when one was given out. There is no equivalent in the current system. No one is holding up placards with 72 on them for Yu Na Kim.
Originally Posted by Tesla
03-16-2013, 09:09 AM
Poor Patric Chan. People, it's not his fault that he got the first place!
03-16-2013, 09:16 AM
I agree. Verner has not been good for over a season now. Brian still skates well just doesn't follow the new judging rules so doesn't get as high as before. Dai, well last 2 competitions were not his best but last season was really strong and this year earlier too. He had a fine quad before 4cc and his artistry is always so strong.He improved himself so much last few seasons. I think he could medal at OG. Skating would will miss him when he retires after OG.
Originally Posted by MaiKatze
Watched Yuzuru over again and his free skate was really strong, fought for everything. I still see him most likely to win Worlds next year and could be a skater who could take the gold in Sochi. Patrick mentioned he was not motivated in practice and just got it back 3 weeks ago. I think if he does not get this motivation next season and improve his consistency in competition he could very well find the gold out of reach.
03-16-2013, 09:17 AM
I'm actually a fan of COP. As you say, if it were applied the way it was meant to, it is an advance over 6.0. But Uncle Dick Button, a very wise (if sometimes cranky) man pointed out when it was first proposed: nothing is going to change specifically because of anonymous judging. Why? Because where's the accountability?
Originally Posted by Robeye
It ook a few years, but judges have finally figured out how to game the system. You can't do it with TES--those pesky video replays will show whether a particular element fits the criteria or not. But you can do it with the parts of the systems that are objective: GOE and PCS.
Until DOE and PCS are more closely tied to TES, you will always have problems There are 11 judges on a panel? Why not make it an even 12, and have 6 TES/GOE judges and 6 PCS judges. Make the relationship between technical mistakes and relevant PCS scores stronger. And get rid of anonymity. People are held accountable for their opinions in the real world. Well guess what judges? You live in the real world too. You shouldn't be allowed to hide behind a cloak of anonymity.
03-16-2013, 09:18 AM
I think that the system that the IJS replaced adequately addressed that problem. Under 6.0, the winner of the long program, if he or she was in the top three in the short, won the gold. Sometimes, a lower-ranked skater, like Sarah Hughes in 2002, could come from behind with a winning long program. And when the long program winner didn't win--such as Michelle at '97 Worlds--it was because the winner (Tara) beat everyone else with her long program. In other words, she still had to deliver.
Originally Posted by LeReveur
It is ironic that we are seeing history repeat itself to some extent. Somewhere on YouTube is a clip from the 1971 Worlds where Janet Lynn ignited the crowd with her free skating but didn't make the podium because she was so far behind in figures. The crowd started chanting her name at the medal ceremony and she had to come out and take a little bow. And when Trixi Schuba won Olympic gold in 1972--again after Janet won the free skate--the system was changed to give more weight to the skating part and less to figures. The more things change....
03-16-2013, 09:19 AM
Kwan's vodka dealer
I like how it can be manipulated and still look objective and fair. I also like that fans can use it to justify wins of their favorite skaters for less-than-stellar skates over other skaters who skated much better. Because the numbers are there, it has to be true (as if the numbers designation and deduction values and the number of times transitions get counted in the scoring aren't arbitrary to begin with). :P
Originally Posted by invisiblespiral
Also, I hear a lot more support for judges in the COP-era than I ever heard during the 6.0 era (I would include callers but they didn't exist prior to COP). I find it interesting that because of the change in the system, it makes people more inclined to believe that there is a much more good faith effort by those distributing their scores.