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Thread: 2013 Worlds Men LP

  1. #1066
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Ten - who has not been in the top mix in the last...what ...5 years? How pathetic!
    I do not understand why you and Wallylutz keep bringing up what Denis Ten did or did not do five years ago. Or what he might or might not do five years in the future.

    It's what he did at this competition that we should be discussing.

    Taking the short program together with the long, Ten had the best competition. If the point totals say otherwise, then shame on the CoP.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-16-2013 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    some didn't even know he existed prior to this competition.
    Aaron was also not known much before US nationals. Yet, USFSF had balls to give him the gold title while him being basically a nobody. It's called 'fair play' fyi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I think undeservedly losing the National title to Hanyu this season, after skating PHENOMENALLY, really hurt his confidence.
    It hurst Yuzu too no doubt. He was there and heard the polite silence his win was treated. Not saying that it hurt sport in general in Japan. JSF&Hashimoto is either a bunch of idiots or she has her agenda that I am not aware of.

  3. #1068
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    I like the idea of factoring PCS on the SP by 0.8 (maybe just 0.9). After all, the SP is supposed to be a technical program.

  4. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do not understand why you and Wallylutz keep bringing up what Denis Ten did or did not do five years ago. Or what he might or might not do five years in the future.

    It's what he did at this competition that we should be discussing.

    Taking the short program together with the long, Ten had the best competition. If the point totals say otherwise, then shame on the CoP.

    ITA here. Ten's B-list past shouldnt matter at all. He had the best overall performances of the competition and deserved to pull an Arakawa 2004 and have an upset win.

  5. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    The judges need anonymity to protect them from having to prove that they did someone a "favor". .
    Yes. And this assumption and "protection" tells a lot about this sport.

  6. #1071
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    Mathman, you wrote that "They gave their marks according to the rules." Really ? If that is true, how can the goe's range , for enamel, from 0 to 3 for a skater's layback spin?

    Evidently something is going amiss here and in a very important way. Either the judges don't understand the rules or they are written in such a way they can not be applied well.
    There is something very wrong when there is such a variance of opinion as to the goe that should be given. Some variance is allowable, but not to this extent.

  7. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do not understand why you and Wallylutz keep bringing up what Denis Ten did or did not do five years ago. Or what he might or might not do five years in the future.

    It's what he did at this competition that we should be discussing.

    Taking the short program together with the long, Ten had the best competition. If the point totals say otherwise, then shame on the CoP.
    The truth is Ten has gotten enough boost from his old statu for his outstanding but not perfect performance. It was too bad that he didn't do a perfect LP. If he hadn't doubled his flip jump, he'd have been a world champion. So blame Ten, if you will.

    By the way, Ten's BV is almost 3 points lower than Chan's.

  8. #1073
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    The judges definitely did not score correctly even according to the very flawed COP rules. Chan deserved about a 95 for his SP, not a 98. He deserved significantly lower PCS for his badly flawed LP, especialy in the areas of PE and IN where his scores should have been mediocre at best. He does not deserve straight +3s for every element he does well, he is not great at every jump, spin, and step. Had the judges scored properly, even under flawed COP, he would have lost by atleast 8 points overall I am sure.

  9. #1074
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKike View Post
    ITA here. Ten's B-list past shouldnt matter at all. He had the best overall performances of the competition and deserved to pull an Arakawa 2004 and have an upset win.
    I still think many critics and judges with training will tell you the quality of Chan, Dai's skating even with errors and at worlds was significantly higher than Ten's. And this fp was hardly a artistic mastery by Ten - I have seen from him better.

  10. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Also, I don't agree that removing the anonymity and holding judges accountable for their scores would "make the politics ten times worse." The unspoken assumption you are making is that the amount of politicking/deal-making is significantly lower now, but is that indeed the case? I don't know, but I don't think you can assume it is. The point is with anonymous judging we never will know.
    If you don't know which judge gave which scores than you have no guarantee that any deal you will make has actually been completed. So let's say that federation A and federation B meet and agree that each will mark the other federation's skaters very highly. The event is over and... you have no idea whether the other side has actually did what promised.

    Judges need to be protected from threats as well.

    I will give you an example (I can talk about it, because it's been printed in a newspaper):

    Evgeni Platov (I think it was him, might have been another Russian skater) once stumbled slightly in their CD. The Polish judge placed them second.

    After the competition, the Russian team leader went to the Polish judge and told her: 'Forget about your team ever placing well again.'

    And guess what, they never placed well again. Of course that team's future placements could also be the result of their skating not being good enough and what was said could have been done because of temper flaring up and possibly didn't really mean anything. But still.

    Another example is what was happening when Chait/Sakhnovski were competing. I'm not going to publicly accuse anyone of anything but let's just say that there were a lot of tensions backstage.

    As Moon said:

    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    Don't be fooled into thinking there is not as much behind door deals as there always has been. The judges need anonymity to protect them from having to prove that they did someone a "favor". The bad side to that is we do not know which judges are playing with the skaters marks. I guess we can not have it both ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't see why punishing skaters twice is so bad in itself. You have to look at whether the proposed deductions for major mistakes are going to be more accurate in reflecting what the skater produced over what we have now.
    Think about the consequences of a decision like this.

    Everybody would start skating conservative simple programs because taking risks would be too costly. You would be trying to make sure you never fall.

    I don't want skating to be safe and conservative. I want it to take risks and excite.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I just it's funny that some are so nonchalant about big falls in a routine (and multiple falls) and can live with a performance that is mired in them winning a competition, but once you talk about underrotation and fluting or lipping, then it's the end of figure skating.
    That's because if a skater falls on a fully rotated jump, then at least they went for it and they completed it other than for the landing part. If a skater underrotates, flutzes or lips, then they aren't completing a jump. They are completing some kind of bastardised version of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I mean, is anyone complaining that transitions are basically being rewarded twice (in jump GOE and in a separate category in PCS)?
    TES and PCS will always overlap to some extent. But if a skater falls yet still presents their program well I don't see any reason to deduct on the PCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by suzukifan27 View Post
    He just believes people are fooled by his 'knowlege'. LOL. Insanity.
    Those kind of personal comments are really unnecessary. If you disagree with me on anything, you are very welcome to show me why I am wrong.

  11. #1076
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    Awww Plushyfan - that was expected.

    I personally think he doesn't stand a chance. The fact that he could do two flawless programs in the past is........in the past. The poor guy has had so many physical problems in the last year or so I'm surprised he can still walk, much less skate. I really feel like this Worlds competition has shown that youth is taking over. I'm very happy for Denis Ten and Javier Fernandes and the first medals for their countries. And there are some young guys like Hanyu in the ranks coming up.
    Perhaps I was not clear, if he can prepare .. if he will be able to compete, only in this case.

  12. #1077
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    The judges definitely did not score correctly even according to the very flawed COP rules. Chan deserved about a 95 for his SP, not a 98. He deserved significantly lower PCS for his badly flawed LP, especialy in the areas of PE and IN where his scores should have been mediocre at best. He does not deserve straight +3s for every element he does well, he is not great at every jump, spin, and step. Had the judges scored properly, even under flawed COP, he would have lost by atleast 8 points overall I am sure.
    I personally love IJS (even it is flawed) but I agree with this to an extent. Had Chan not been overmarked in the SP, Ten would have won.

    The problem is that once a skater has an established reputation and is seen as very good by the judges, they end up getting very high marks whatever they actually do.

  13. #1078
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do not understand why you and Wallylutz keep bringing up what Denis Ten did or did not do five years ago. Or what he might or might not do five years in the future.

    It's what he did at this competition that we should be discussing.

    Taking the short program together with the long, Ten had the best competition. If the point totals say otherwise, then shame on the CoP.
    I was so happy for Ten last night - but at the same time kind of yelling at him about the doubled triple flip. Regardless, though, give what everyone else did in both segments, I really feel like he should have won. I don't think he should necessarily have been scored higher; I do feel that Chan should have been scored lower. I can honestly see 94 or 95 in the current system's rules for his really fantastic SP. But it wans't, IMO, a 98 SP. And, I could honestly see a much lower LP result - where it gets tricky for me is just how much lower in terms of how the current judging system is 'ruled governed' and typically 'applied'. But I could see anywhere between 148/49 to as high as 165 (again depending on a number of decisions); and thus, I could see him second or third in this comp.

    Frankly, after thinking about it, and knowing that Javi wasn't his best best especially with the SP dificulties, and yet still given what everyone else did, I think it would have been better for everyone - the sport, the contestants, the fans etc if it had ended up: Ten, Fernandez, and Chan with the latter very close to Hanyu in overall scores (and we can debate then if Hanyu should have made it up to third and Chan down to 4th).

    And, what makes me really sad is that I think this outcome would have been better for Chan - I think winning like this (again) is really, really not heatlhy for him; must feel bad to feel bad about winning; must make it hard to focus on what to do to 'improve' when the judges are kind of saying you don't have to...it must bring whole new level of scrutiny that I imagine is difficult to deal with. Just makes me sad. And I so love his skating, but this just takes the wind out of that joy for me.

    On another note: my heart kind of breaks for Dai - I really hope we all get to see a refreshed and rejuvenated Dai next year, with programs that move us like last years' did (Blues and Garden of Souls), and that are executed in the way we all know he can. Also, I was happy to see Brian as I haven't this season; really too too bad on the Zayak...and I'd have to rewatch to determine with his UR were too strictly called; but really great to see him in the mix and command the audience's attention and admiration!

  14. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I have to admit, I really enjoy Max Aaron.
    Me, too!

  15. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKike View Post
    Just my 2 cents on this whole drama:

    The simple sum of SP+FS points is NOT working. Patrick basically just won the title on his huge lead after the SP (and it shouldnt been that big, but thats another issue). Denis Ten had an excellent SP placing a very deservend 2nd and then had by far and undoubtedly the best LP of the night and STILL did not win the competition. That is simply wrong and shows how the "racking of points" system miserably fails to reflect who was the all around best skater. The FP should always weight more, that way we would avoid having such a bad performance getting away with the title.
    Would the recently concluded junior world pairs championship be a good example of where application of COP system was correctly applied? Gold medalist Denney/Frazier of the US were 3rd in the SP and 2nd in the LP. The SP leader (China) did poorly in the LP, the LP leader (Russia) did poorly in the SP. The 2nd place team was 2nd in the SP, and 3rd in the LP, and overall 2nd (barely).

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