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Thread: 2013 Worlds Men LP

  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    The suggestion that ISU should do something just because people are incapable of critical thinking and do not understand neither figure skating, nor the judging system is laughable.

    Yes, let's let the angry mob dictate the results, that would be much better.
    You have given us a system in which 2+2=3. And when people say "but we have 4 apples in our hands" you are screaming "idiots, learn the rules".
    I don't know who here is incapable of critical thinking.

  2. #1082
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofskate View Post
    Would the recently concluded junior world pairs championship be a good example of where application of COP system was correctly applied? Gold medalist Denney/Frazier of the US were 3rd in the SP and 2nd in the LP. The SP leader (China) did poorly in the LP, the LP leader (Russia) did poorly in the SP. The 2nd place team was 2nd in the SP, and 3rd in the LP, and overall 2nd (barely).
    I would agree that is a case where the system was applied correctly.

  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by itoja View Post
    You have given us a system in which 2+2=3. And when people say "but we have 4 apples in our hands" you are screaming "idiots, learn the rules".
    I don't know who here is incapable of critical thinking.
    When a fall happens, suddenly it becomes the most important thing about skating. It's seen as a far more grave and serious error than anything else and suddenly other things start to matter less than they normally would. It's completely irrational.

  4. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    When a fall happens, suddenly it becomes the most important thing about skating. It's seen as a far more grave and serious error than anything else and suddenly other things start to matter less than they normally would. It's completely irrational.
    I do see what you are saying and I agreed with your defense of Kostners scores in the short program. The thing about Chans performance though was it was not just one fall, it was 4 very disruptive falls or stumbles which were not only glaring technical flaws, but greatly took away and took all zest and energy out of the overall performance. Of course one or even two fall(s) that did not mar the performance could be easily forgiven and should be overcome by other strong things about the performance. You could tell he was rattled by the increasing number of mistakes and it affected the quality of his other elements and overall skating in the 2nd half of the performance too, yet not reflected at all in the scores.

    I do respect your views and detailed analysis though and that you have done on all the disciplines here though, and do see where you are coming from.

  5. #1085
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    ^I have to agree with the above on both how much I respect Ziggy's analysis and how much I think it the problem with chan's program - or the scoring of it - was more than about a (as in one) fall. The fall on the lutz would not have 'ruined' the program for me - he had difficult entrance out of nowhere, went up, fell, and literally popped right up and continued with the complexity of his steps with speed. It was after that that I felt he lost the performance/execution points and where I felt the choreography was marred too.

    ETA I meant to say interpretation, not choreography. Although, if i get the energy up to watch this again, I'll try to see if the falls etc also impacted the choreo

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Mathman, you wrote that "They gave their marks according to the rules." Really ? If that is true, how can the goe's range , for enamel, from 0 to 3 for a skater's layback spin?
    I am not so worried about that. Some of the judges thought that the spin was good enough to garner a few bullets, others didn't.

  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauf View Post
    Yes!! The commentators on British Eurosport were dumping on Patrick Chan big time but they sure love D10, Hanyu and Dai. One said he's never seen Dai skate that LP with so much passion and artistry. It gave me goosebumps.

    And, Dai is still the most popular figure skater in the world - he's a rock star - and people will flock to see him skate after he retires. Chan on the other hand...meh.
    Dai is my favorite skater right now. Even with the flaws, I loved his long program. And he was my gold medalist last year. Someone once asked if there have been any programs "for the ages" since the adoption of COP. My answer is, yes there is one: Dai's Blues for Klook, every time he performed it, but especially at 2012 World's and 2012 WTT. And his Pagliacci, the way he skated it at Japan Nationals, comes close.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    [b]I have seen from him [Ten} better.
    Again, what does that have to do with it? It is this] competition that is being judged, not how well or poorly we have seen Ten perform in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    Joubert frustrates me. His technical content is not at the level of the other men and it's just not possible for him to earn a lot of points even if he skates clean (which he didn't).
    What other men? Excuse me, but he has all the difficult jumps including two quads. He has been a victim of a strange judging in these Championships and last Worlds.

  10. #1090
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    chanaholics need to sober up

    Quote Originally Posted by figuristka View Post
    The free skates were quite a let down in general. Alot of the men just seemed exhausted.

    Yuzuru was actually pretty good in his free considering his knee program and the illness he had after 4cc. I felt so sorry for him after the short and i was almost shouting at the tv when he landed jumps as wanted him to do well. Yes he didn't have the energy he has when well but adore him and he still had something charismatic in his style. i think being able to land the quad and skate quite clean he did an amazing job. Too bad didn't quite reach the podium. He had been my pick to win. I think he will win next year's world barring any illness.

    , , ,

    Patrick, well i adore this program and his skating skills. Those soft edges and his transitions. I do think he is improving artistically but i did not expect him to be as bad after he landed 2 beautiful quads. When he fell on the 3 lz i thought he would still hold it together. Along with Dai and Yuzuru he is a favourite but i kind of wished he got second. I don't think he had a championship performance and i want him to address he needs to work harder next season. He was great on practice and gained back his modivation for skating prior to Worlds but seems performance wise when something went wrong he couldn't relay on past skates for this season to help him be confident.His coach didn't look upset and i wonder if this arrangement is to his benefit.

    . . .

    Brian Joubert, loved how he worked so hard and performs for the audience. He is so powerful and its a shame his marks were not rewarded more. Glad he is happy with himself though.

    . . .

    Denis Ten, well he stepped up again. Really good all around skater. I remember when he was with TT. Always considered having raw talented but he really went for it and had the best performance of the night. Even did the quad which he couldnt do all season. Even though i love Patrick i kind of wished Denis won overall. Looking forward to seeing his twitter on GS. He gets a gold medal for his free skate.Well done.
    Totally agree with the above. However, further to that, there is a serious issue for the sport and its reputation, and how it is scored, when two years running at the world finals, the same winning skater does two amazing quads and then fills up the rest of his program with a borderline ugly skate. Neither Skate Canada nor Mr. Chan should be bragging on this one. Chan does not have to work harder unfortunately. That is the message. Just do two perfect quads and the rest can be total garbage. I hate to criticize my favorite skater from my own city but what happened last night was not right. Quite frankly, it is shameful.

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I still think many critics and judges with training will tell you the quality of Chan, Dai's skating even with errors and at worlds was significantly higher than Ten's. And this fp was hardly a artistic mastery by Ten - I have seen from him better.
    And I do agree their quality of skating is way superior but they were nullified by the numerous mistakes and subpar performances they had last night. Once again, it shows the failure of not having a right way to give the win to the skater whose "sum of its parts" was overall the best.

  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The truth is Ten has gotten enough boost from his old statu for his outstanding but not perfect performance. It was too bad that he didn't do a perfect LP. If he hadn't doubled his flip jump, he'd have been a world champion. So blame Ten, if you will.

    By the way, Ten's BV is almost 3 points lower than Chan's.
    OK, but you didn't answer my question.

    As for base value -- anyone can turn in a jump card. Unfortunately, then you have to stand up on the jumps.

    (Oh wait...)

  13. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do not understand why you and Wallylutz keep bringing up what Denis Ten did or did not do five years ago. Or what he might or might not do five years in the future.

    It's what he did at this competition that we should be discussing.

    Taking the short program together with the long, Ten had the best competition. If the point totals say otherwise, then shame on the CoP.

    Well said, Mathman. Well said, indeed.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I do see what you are saying and I agreed with your defense of Kostners scores in the short program. The thing about Chans performance though was it was not just one fall, it was 4 very disruptive falls or stumbles which were not only glaring technical flaws, but greatly took away and took all zest and energy out of the overall performance. Of course one or even two fall(s) that did not mar the performance could be easily forgiven and should be overcome by other strong things about the performance. You could tell he was rattled by the increasing number of mistakes and it affected the quality of his other elements and overall skating in the 2nd half of the performance too, yet not reflected at all in the scores.
    And that is definitely a very valid point.

    It's not the falls themselves that were an issue but rather how Chan has let them affect his performance. I have also felt that it was very subpar, his heart wasn't really in it and he wasn't fully committed to presenting the program. He did not skate to the top of his ability.

    A case can definitely be made for Ten winning and personally I have also felt that he probably should have won (and I'd definitely prefer to see Ten on top of the podium).

    However, I can also see how Chan's many exceptional qualities could have made up for his mistakes, giving him the gold.

    It's great if there are opposing views and if people point out good and bad things about skaters' performances because it's not possible for one person to notice everything. I just feel frustrated by knee-jerk 'OMG he fell, he should lose, this is so stupid, judges are corrupt' reactions.

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    ^I have to agree with the above on both how much I respect Ziggy's analysis and how much I think it the problem with chan's program - or the scoring of it - was more than about a (as in one) fall. The fall on the lutz would not have 'ruined' the program for me - he had difficult entrance out of nowhere, went up, fell, and literally popped right up and continued with the complexity of his steps with speed. It was after that that I felt he lost the performance/execution points and where I felt the choreography was marred too.

    ETA I meant to say interpretation, not choreography. Although, if i get the energy up to watch this again, I'll try to see if the falls etc also impacted the choreo
    Ziggy is simply being as frustrating (I hesitate to add moronic) as the rulebook itself.

    The best skater lost. I understand how Chan won, because I understand the rules - but how many examples beyond Lambiel's flawed 05 win, Oda's 4CC win with a massive break in CH and this splatfest by Chan must we endure before SOMEONE in the ISU implements more of a framework for components. To score more than 7 with multiple falls on any component is wrong. Essentially the judges are saying, I can see that you have great Skating skills, even though you fell. By that logic, they may aswell go to the practice sessions and mark the jumps based on the overall capabilities of the skaters.


    I can't even begin to lament Joubert's placement, because again, I understand how it happened within the framework. However, all that tells me is that the framework is flawed.

    I've loved D10 since Vancouver and whilst I feel sad that he didn't win, I am happy that the code at least allowed someone from an Obskure country with no placement or significant reputation reach the podium.

    All codes and rules need to be tweaked in order to become solid and reliable, ISU need to learn from this. I feel like it would be a guarantee had Plushenko just won in Russia under the same circumstances. Unfortunately, it's Chan in Canada, so....actually, nothing will happen.

    Overall, it's more concerning that so many men struggled. I suggest next year, that the men aim to peak at the Olympics by saving the quads and watering their content on the GP. most of these men peaked months ago, and way to many of them flopped to simply put it down to nerves.

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