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Thread: 2013 Worlds Men LP

  1. #1156
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    No way. PE of 9.75 for two falls and two other very visible errors? What would he have gotten if he was clean? 12?

  2. #1157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I look at it this way. The program components are supposed to reflect the whole program, not just the part of the program between elements.
    I believe that the judges are trained to think like CoP now. They have broken down the program second by second. Other than those a few seconds of Patrick's mistakes (including his falls), he did to almost the maximum capacity of a performance in such details. It seems if you ignore those seconds of his mistakes, he has put his full emotion into his program. That was the reason that he could get such high PCS for his program with falls. Many skaters could not do that. They fall, then they lose something in the performance in the rest of the program.

    You think like 6.0. You see the program as a whole. I don't think you are wrong in the sense of performing art. In fact, I believe it should be seen as a whole in PCS scoring for the sake of making connections with the general public. I do not object changing the idea of scoring PE in PCS. But under current set up for the system, I believe this was the result. I don't think Chan's scores were inflated.

    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    No way. PE of 9.75 for two falls and two other very visible errors? What would he have gotten if he was clean? 12?
    What are you talking about?!

    You'd better re-check the fact! There was no such thing as 9.75 in PE for "two falls and two other very visible errors"! 9.75 in PE was in Patrick's world record making SP!

  3. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    After rewatching Patrick's and Denis' free skates, I do not change my initial notion that PChiddy fully deserves his title. If anyone received the most inflated score and was most held up by the judges in this competition, it's Denis not Patrick.
    I personally felt that Dennis's emotion in the FS came after the skate and he was a little automated in the Long. In the Short he seemed to be in the moment more. This impression is from being there live.

  4. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I believe that the judges are trained to think like CoP now. They have broken down the program second by second. Other than those a few seconds of Patrick's mistakes (including his falls), he did to almost the maximum capacity of a performance in such details. It seems if you ignore those seconds of his mistakes, he has put his full emotion into his program. That was the reason that he could get such high PCS for his program with falls. Many skaters could not do that. They fall, then they lose something in the performance in the rest of the program.

    You think like 6.0. You see the program as a whole. I don't think you are wrong in the sense of performing art. In fact, I believe it should be seen as a whole in PCS scoring for the sake of making connections with the general public. I do not object changing the idea of scoring PE in PCS. But under current set up for the system, I believe this was the result. I don't think Chan's scores were inflated.
    I will meet you halfway. Patrick's skating does have a quality that never abandons him even when things go wrong.

    But Patrick himself said (in his interview for Icenetwork) that falling saps your energy. I think that happened here. After the first fall, the first half of the ensuing free skating sequence was not as fluid or energetic as we expect. Finally he got back in synch, only to fall again. The last half of the program petered out considerably. And unfortunately the lack of focus and attack made the music seem increasing dreary as the program wore on. I do not agree that he was able to "put his full emotion into the program." Quite the contrary.

    What are you talking about?!

    You'd better re-check the fact! There was no such thing as 9.75 in PE for "two falls and two other very visible errors"! 9.75 in PE was in Patrick's world record making SP!
    He did get a 9.50 in the free program, though. The same judge gave him component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50.

    Patrick's total PCS for his record setting short program was 45.67. His unfactored PCS for the long was 43.50. Don't you see something out of whack here?

  5. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I will meet you halfway. Patrick's skating does have a quality that never abandons him even when things go wrong.

    But Patrick himself said (in his interview for Icenetwork) that falling saps your energy. I think that happened here. After the first fall, the first half of the ensuing free skating sequence was not as fluid or energetic as we expect. Finally he got back in synch, only to fall again. The last half of the program petered out considerably. And unfortunately the lack of focus and attack made the music seem increasing dreary as the program wore on. I do not agree that he was able to "put his full emotion into the program." Quite the contrary.



    He did get a 9.50 in the free program, though. The same judge gave him component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50.

    Patrick's total PCS for his record setting short program was 45.67. His unfactored PCS for the long was 43.50. Don't you see something out of whack here?
    Last year in Nice there was a visible loss of focus in the second half of the program. This year he really made an effort to get back into the program. Yes, it didnt flow as well as it would have should be not have fallen or doubled but there were whole sections which were really good. If you compare those sections with other performances of PC you will see what I mean. Keep in mind though that he changed his placement of jumps and some of the choreo at worlds.

  6. #1161
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    Still not deserving 9.5 for PE for that many visible errors (OK, so it WASN'T a 9.75, but STILL, that mark is totally off the wall for the EXECUTION of that program).

  7. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Can you name a single competition in which Lambiel and Buttle skated as poorly as Chan did in the LP and still won?
    2005 Worlds LP was pretty darn close - for BOTH Lambiel and Buttle in comparison to Chan.

    Lambiel (1A, 4T-3T, 3L, 2A, 4T, 2Z-3T, 1F, 3S-2T -- 2 quads, 4 clean triples - no 3F/3Z/3A) didn't fare much better than Chan (4T-3T, 4T, 3Z-fall, 3A<fall, 3L, 3F-3S stepout, 2Z-2T, 2A -- 2 quads, 3 clean triples). Hard to say who was technically worse -- Lambiel didn't fall twice, but he popped two triples (the axel and flip) to just singles, and turned two triples (the axel and lutz) to doubles. And unlike Chan, he actually WON the freeskate in spite of 4 major errors.

    In the same FS, Buttle won silver (and placed 2nd in the FS) in spite of 2 falls and only 5 triples (3F+3T, 3A-fall, 3S, 3A, 3L-fall, 3Z-2T, 2A, 2A), including only 1 clean axel -- IMO, this is a worse skate technically than Lambiel's/Chan's which at least had 2 quads to make up for the errors.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_scores.pdf

  8. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    After rewatching Patrick's and Denis' free skates, I do not change my initial notion that PChiddy fully deserves his title. If anyone received the most inflated score and was most held up by the judges in this competition, it's Denis not Patrick.
    Actually the one most gifted by PCS by the judges was Takahashi (8th best TES in the SP, 13th best TES in the LP... and 6th overall). But yes, Ten was given extraordinarily high PCS (to be given the same SS as Takahashi and higher PE/IN is kinda ridiculous, even if he did skate clean).

  9. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2005 Worlds LP was pretty darn close - for BOTH Lambiel and Buttle in comparison to Chan.

    Lambiel (1A, 4T-3T, 3L, 2A, 4T, 2Z-3T, 1F, 3S-2T -- 2 quads, 4 clean triples - no 3F/3Z/3A) didn't fare much better than Chan (4T-3T, 4T, 3Z-fall, 3A<fall, 3L, 3F-3S stepout, 2Z-2T, 2A -- 2 quads, 3 clean triples). Hard to say who was technically worse -- Lambiel didn't fall twice, but he popped two triples (the axel and flip) to just singles, and turned two triples (the axel and lutz) to doubles. And unlike Chan, he actually WON the freeskate in spite of 4 major errors.
    Actually, Lambiel had three major errors, not four. The second axel was an intentionally planned double axel, it's obvious when you actually watch the program (set-up of the 2A is different and much less telegraphed compared to his usual setup to the 3A) and Lambiel rarely (if ever) goes for 2 triple axels in his LP. Actually I can't think of a single time in which Lambiel has actually went for two triple axels in his LP, though he might have done it when he was a lot younger. Anyway, the triple axel is his worst jump. Lambiel just doesn't go for it because he'll have to do the second 3A in combination and that's pretty much a disaster for him.

    Lambiel won the freeskate with three major errors because literally everyone skated worse (believe it or not, but even with 3 pops Lambiel had the highest TES of the night). No Denis Tens that night. Lambiel wasn't held up (which was the OP's original claim) at all. And I'd have to say that 3 pops > 2 falls, 1 pop, 1 step-out.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Actually the one most gifted by PCS by the judges was Takahashi (8th best TES in the SP, 13th best TES in the LP... and 6th overall).
    Why do people think that PCS must match TES? It doesn't have to. It SHOULDN'T have to. In the SP, for instance, Takahashi may have had 8th best TES, but he skated his heart out in that program and got a standing ovation. His low TES was because of URs, which were barely perceptible in real time and didn't detract from the overall performance. As for the LP, his TES was low but he sure as heck didn't deserve the 13th best PCS!

    It's important to watch the actual performance to see whether PCS was a "gift" instead of just looking at TES.

    And yes, I think Ten was definitely gifted in PCS. But the judges had backed themselves into that corner by gifting Chan in PCS as well.

  10. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I will meet you halfway. Patrick's skating does have a quality that never abandons him even when things go wrong.

    But Patrick himself said (in his interview for Icenetwork) that falling saps your energy. I think that happened here. After the first fall, the first half of the ensuing free skating sequence was not as fluid or energetic as we expect. Finally he got back in synch, only to fall again. The last half of the program petered out considerably. And unfortunately the lack of focus and attack made the music seem increasing dreary as the program wore on. I do not agree that he was able to "put his full emotion into the program." Quite the contrary.



    He did get a 9.50 in the free program, though. The same judge gave him component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50.

    Patrick's total PCS for his record setting short program was 45.67. His unfactored PCS for the long was 43.50. Don't you see something out of whack here?
    Can you explain this:

    Ten's SP:

    SS range 7.50 - 8.75 average SS=8.07

    Ten's LP:

    SS range 8.25 - 9.50 average SS=8.54

    Will he improve that much in SS in two days?

    In fact, every single category in Ten's PCS "has improved" in two days. TR from SP 7.89 to LP 8.43. PE from SP 8.39 to LP 8.89. CH from SP 8.11 to LP 8.86. IN from SP 8.29 to LP 8.86.

    On the contrary, Chan's every single category in PCS was lowered from SP to LP (rightfully, of course). However, if you see the rising in PCS from SP to LP is normal, as in Ten's case, Chan's abnormal lowered PCS from SP to LP has already factored in the mistakes he had in his LP.


    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Still not deserving 9.5 for PE for that many visible errors (OK, so it WASN'T a 9.75, but STILL, that mark is totally off the wall for the EXECUTION of that program).
    There was only one judge who gave Chan 9.5 for SS. Why don't you say that there was another judge who gave him 8.75 for SS?

    Will Ten's 9.50 and 9.00 in SS in LP be totally off the wall too?


    ETA:

    There was NO 9.5 in PE in Chan's LP. The highest he got in PE was from only one judge. That judge gave him 9.25. The lowest PE he got was from one judge who gave him 8.00.

  11. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Why do people think that PCS must match TES? It doesn't have to. It SHOULDN'T have to. In the SP, for instance, Takahashi may have had 8th best TES, but he skated his heart out in that program and got a standing ovation. His low TES was because of URs, which were barely perceptible in real time and didn't detract from the overall performance. As for the LP, his TES was low but he sure as heck didn't deserve the 13th best PCS!

    It's important to watch the actual performance to see whether PCS was a "gift" instead of just looking at TES. And yes, I think Ten was definitely gifted in PCS. But the judges had backed themselves into that corner by gifting Chan in PCS as well.
    I think it's not so much a matter of how inflated Chan or Ten's PCS was but how they are in reference to each other (since both won by a considerable margin, that PCS inflation is negligible).

    I also agree with you that TES shouldn't equal PCS, but it's hard to justify a skater being technically inferior over both segments and still placing so high. Aaron, for example, while nowhere nearly as good a skater as Daisuke had a vastly cleaner (and more demanding) competition technically, the only real error being him doubling the second 4S in the LP.

  12. #1167
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    Actually the one most gifted by PCS by the judges was Takahashi (8th best TES in the SP, 13th best TES in the LP... and 6th overall).
    I would have given Takahashi a slightly more PCS, were I a judge. While his TES is very low due to one combo, 4T<, and 3A<+SEQ with a fall where he actually got mere 1.18 after fall deduction, in perfromance-wise I enjoyed his LP here as much as I did at his GPF LP. I much prefer these two performances than his Nats' LP where he skated best this season. Going into LP, a number of reports and news articles said Dai was struggling with his jumps thus I was prepared for the worst. Besides, considering his verious misfortunes and not-so-welcome attitide from his own fed throughout the season, plus he is a sort of skater with many ups and downs in his whole career, his fans kind of knew, before the Worlds, 2012-13 season was not his year. But I was pleasantly surprised he skated big ger and much smoother here. Upon double-footing the opening quad and popping the second one into triple, he himself already knew he was not going to win but he (looked to me) refused to let his performance away. I very much liked Dai never stop performing even after the fall. That's Daisuke, the skater I have been enjoying, loving and rooting for. This is of course my personal opinion. I perhaps am biased. I am no judge no professional unfortunately, just a casual fan who have been watching this sport for the last few decades. So ignore me, pls, cause am only saying it in my sleep. zzzzz

  13. #1168
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    Math, I have rewatched Chan and Ten's LPs. Nothing you can nitpick in Chan's skating other than those four mistakes. I feel that Chan deserved gold. This was harder to dispute for Chan detractors than in 2012 Worlds where Chan won LP over Takahashi. I felt that Takahashi probably should have won LP in 2012 but then Chan deserved 2012 world gold. He was brilliant this time except those falls and mistakes! His entire skating was as if he didn't mind that there was a big element coming up. He didn't slow down and he didn't seem to have prepared for the jumps. Though I'm sure he did prepare but it looked completely blend in with all other movements and made them all look like a choreography movement. That was the excellence of Chan's skating. Most top skaters cannot do that. My opinion is besides Chan, only Hanyu and Abbott could do that in the top of this current crop, not Takahashi, not Kozuka.

    On the other hand, Ten skated cautiously throughout his LP except after the last jump which was 2A. He was preparing for the jumps long before the jumps. Slow, concentrated, mainly doing what he was given, not much emotion. Only after that last jump, he started to let loose and put the whole emotion into his movements. But it was too late, it was the end of the performance. Yes, he skated clean eventhough not perfect. Was that a top knotch skating? NO! Clean but no! Don't get me wrong. I like Denis Ten very much. He is the cutiest cutie pie. I'm very very happy that he got silver medal. But that skating of Ten's in general cannot challenge Patrick Chan in general. However since Patrick Chan faltered that night, Ten has won the LP. So Ten got what he deserved. The ones who could challenge the championship position were a few spots down the line.

    Another thing is that you have mentioned that one judge has given Chan component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50? I think what you were trying to say was that one judge has given Chan component scores of 9.50, 9.75, 9.25, 9.50, and 9.50. But I think highly likely that same judge has given Ten component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50.

    Assume that those two sets of scores came from the same judge:

    SS - Chan and Ten were the same?! Give me a break!
    TR - Chan was 0.50 higher than Ten - acceptable.
    PE - Ten was 0.25 Higher than Chan. Well, they were in the right order.
    CH - Chan and Ten were the same - acceptable.
    IN - Chan and Ten were the same - well, if the judge say so...

  14. #1169
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    ^^ LOL at the desperate attempts to prove that Patrick deserved the title. So, Chan was brilliant, his falls and mistakes didn't affect the program, his excellence in falling was just beautiful and justified his high pcs, 2 points higher the any other guy, and 4 points higher than Takhashi who is a brilliant performer and artist (who also made mistakes). Ten on the other hand, was the slow, concentrated one and didn't really perform?
    Seriously, keep your delusions, there's nothing one can do about it.

  15. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Can you explain this:
    Yes. The IJS is not working out.

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