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Thread: Is It Time To Deemphasize the Quad?

  1. #31
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    No way. Are you talking about quad de-emphasis because Chan's two quads, contributed to his victory. Or because Daisuke isn't landing them consistently anymore?

    The quad is as necessary as the 3-3 in women's if the sport is to progress forward. Why not de-emphasize the triple-triple so that Wagner and Asada don't have to worry about Kim/Russian babies/etc.?

    The quad also gives a chance to skaters who would otherwise never catch up to "top"/"favourite" skaters that get a putative PCS cushion. You think Reynolds would have won 4CC had he not done 3 quads? Denis Ten wouldn't have been in second after the SP if he had done a 3A instead of a quad. It's happened before (him skating a clean SP with 3A, 3F-3T, solo 3) and he hasn't scored nearly as high. Javier Fernandez wouldn't have pulled up to third.

    As for Poodlepal's argument about Plushenko/Yagudin doing "all three", they never had to do even half the choreography, spins, transitions and footwork in the years they dominated and could focus on jump consistency. Chan's first fall on his lutz was partially due to the step he did before, when in the days of Plushenko/Yagudin, you could go off a long setup. And let's not forget Chan has skated cleanly at the Worlds, in two SPs and one LP, while incorporating the quad. Fernandez and Reynolds have also delivered strong FS with 3 quads, proving you don't have to be a Goebel (all quads only) to put out a successful free.

    The quad is probably more important now than ever. I'm not saying somebody should win because of it, but it should be separating the big boys from the also-rans at this point in the sport's progression. It would have been arguably worse if Chan hadn't landed his quads but landed every other element cleanly.

  2. #32
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    and you get a miserable OGM named Evan Lysacek
    no thanks, its a matter of who can land them though

  3. #33
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    The ISU just decided in 2011 to make it more attractive for skaters to go for the quad (by increasing its value and decreasing penalties for under-rotation). This was rumored to be because Lysacek won the 2010 Olympics without a quad and people didn't think that was right. So now we should change it back again? Why? So that now Chan can go back to winning without a quad instead of winning with two quads like he just did?

  4. #34
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    I don't see Chan regressing to no quads, especially when his quads are even more reliable than his triple axel.

    The mere suggestion of de-emphasizing quads is just reactionary. Hey, why not ask the ISU to specifically emphasize Chan's 3A and de-emphasize his quad, while emphasizing everyone else's quads and 3As?

    Chan also won because of the base value of his 3F-1/2L-3S sequence; I'm surprised nobody is demanding that 3-jump sequences be restricted to 3-2-2. We should also de-emphasize level 4 footwork, skating skills, transitions, and everything else that could potentially give Chan an advantage over other skaters.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladskater View Post
    Perhaps it is time the Quad jump becomes less important and quality skating becomes more important. I would rather watch a really talented skater do triple and double jumps and deliver a near flawless if not flawless performance over an extra rotation. Just thnking!!
    If this was the case, Chan would have won with an even greater margin of victory over the pack, because his skating is viewed as having some of the best quality. This would also ensure that Daisuke could make the podium in spite of 8th place TES in the SP and 13th place TES in the FS (although getting the PCS to keep him at 6th overall was generous enough).

    There are a lot of skaters who will never have the artistic capabilities as Chan and Takahashi, and rely on good technical content to have a shot at winning. It's a sport after all. It's not the quad that is causing a lack of quality skating... notice that Chan and Ten and Fernandez made errors on simpler jumping passes.

    Christ, the women for the longest time were watering down their technical content and winning with 4 triples, the hardest being a loop or a flip. The same will happen in the men's if they feel like they can pull a Lysacek/Buttle and win without bringing the big guns.

  6. #36
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    No. Men's skating is the only discipline that has progressed under COP. (Well, maybe dance, too) Plushy was right--men's skating without the quad is ladies' skating.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    -snip-
    I think it's not physically safe for a skater to continually practice it
    -snip-
    I agree. It's not cool how skaters get injuries because they have to train so hard. However, big jumps are thrilling to watch. This is quite a conundrum.

  8. #38
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    Just saying, but there are not that many ladies doing a triple axel, nor have there ever been. It's a rare skill in the ladies' discipline. No quad does not mean ladies skating to me.

  9. #39
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    Men need to man-up and do their quads.

  10. #40
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    They should increase the fall penalty to 2 point deduction for jump element, and 1 point for non jump. After all, first rule of skating is staying on your feet.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    No. Men's skating is the only discipline that has progressed under COP. (Well, maybe dance, too) Plushy was right--men's skating without the quad is ladies' skating.
    Definitely ice dancing has progressed too.

    I am of two minds about quads. The skate fan in me loves that the sport is still progressing. The worrywart in me is in distress about what it does to skaters' bodies. But I don't think I get a say. Skating will move along whether or not I'm sitting there worrywarting about Plushenko's back and Daisuke's knees. Maybe what we need is better skate technology. (Oh, goodness...would that lead to quints?)

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Definitely ice dancing has progressed too.

    I am of two minds about quads. The skate fan in me loves that the sport is still progressing. The worrywart in me is in distress about what it does to skaters' bodies. But I don't think I get a say. Skating will move along whether or not I'm sitting there worrywarting about Plushenko's back and Daisuke's knees. Maybe what we need is better skate technology. (Oh, goodness...would that lead to quints?)
    I definitely share that concern, but the truth is, ambitious athletes will always push their bodies to the limit, no matter what. If quads weren't allowed, then the men would practice triple-triple-triples over and over. As I recall, Tara Lipinski messed up her hip practicing too many of that 3Lo-3Lo combo that won her the OGM. They can always find something to over-train!

  13. #43
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Yes. I remember a podcast/interview with Chris Howarth where he talked about having injured himself over-training the 3Lz.

    http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-21-chris-howarth/

    It's in there somewhere...

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    They should increase the fall penalty to 2 point deduction for jump element, and 1 point for non jump. After all, first rule of skating is staying on your feet.
    To be fair, a skater is already hit with a -GOE on the jump, which usually amounts to much more than a 2 point deduction. The -1 is just to distinguish a fall to the ice compared to a jump that was just really poorly executed (e.g. two-foot with hands down) but still stays upright.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Definitely ice dancing has progressed too.

    I am of two minds about quads. The skate fan in me loves that the sport is still progressing. The worrywart in me is in distress about what it does to skaters' bodies. But I don't think I get a say. Skating will move along whether or not I'm sitting there worrywarting about Plushenko's back and Daisuke's knees. Maybe what we need is better skate technology. (Oh, goodness...would that lead to quints?)
    Ice dancing, for me, is much more of a competitive sport now, with much greater difficulty actually being rewarded, and less open to subjectivity. The performance aspect is diminished, yes, but leave the dramatic performances to the 80's/90's and exhibitions. V/M, and D/W have proved that you can still give beautiful performances with excellent difficulty. Before, the standings were essentially rock solid assuming all skaters went out and did clean dances... now skaters actually need to push themselves and can't rely on reputation as much.

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