Is It Time To Deemphasize the Quad? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Is It Time To Deemphasize the Quad?

Joined
Aug 16, 2009
No. Men's skating is the only discipline that has progressed under COP. (Well, maybe dance, too) Plushy was right--men's skating without the quad is ladies' skating.

Definitely ice dancing has progressed too.

I am of two minds about quads. The skate fan in me loves that the sport is still progressing. The worrywart in me is in distress about what it does to skaters' bodies. But I don't think I get a say. Skating will move along whether or not I'm sitting there worrywarting about Plushenko's back and Daisuke's knees. Maybe what we need is better skate technology. (Oh, goodness...would that lead to quints?)
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Definitely ice dancing has progressed too.

I am of two minds about quads. The skate fan in me loves that the sport is still progressing. The worrywart in me is in distress about what it does to skaters' bodies. But I don't think I get a say. Skating will move along whether or not I'm sitting there worrywarting about Plushenko's back and Daisuke's knees. Maybe what we need is better skate technology. (Oh, goodness...would that lead to quints?)

I definitely share that concern, but the truth is, ambitious athletes will always push their bodies to the limit, no matter what. If quads weren't allowed, then the men would practice triple-triple-triples over and over. As I recall, Tara Lipinski messed up her hip practicing too many of that 3Lo-3Lo combo that won her the OGM. They can always find something to over-train!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
They should increase the fall penalty to 2 point deduction for jump element, and 1 point for non jump. After all, first rule of skating is staying on your feet.

To be fair, a skater is already hit with a -GOE on the jump, which usually amounts to much more than a 2 point deduction. The -1 is just to distinguish a fall to the ice compared to a jump that was just really poorly executed (e.g. two-foot with hands down) but still stays upright.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Definitely ice dancing has progressed too.

I am of two minds about quads. The skate fan in me loves that the sport is still progressing. The worrywart in me is in distress about what it does to skaters' bodies. But I don't think I get a say. Skating will move along whether or not I'm sitting there worrywarting about Plushenko's back and Daisuke's knees. Maybe what we need is better skate technology. (Oh, goodness...would that lead to quints?)

Ice dancing, for me, is much more of a competitive sport now, with much greater difficulty actually being rewarded, and less open to subjectivity. The performance aspect is diminished, yes, but leave the dramatic performances to the 80's/90's and exhibitions. V/M, and D/W have proved that you can still give beautiful performances with excellent difficulty. Before, the standings were essentially rock solid assuming all skaters went out and did clean dances... now skaters actually need to push themselves and can't rely on reputation as much.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I definitely share that concern, but the truth is, ambitious athletes will always push their bodies to the limit, no matter what. If quads weren't allowed, then the men would practice triple-triple-triples over and over. As I recall, Tara Lipinski messed up her hip practicing too many of that 3Lo-3Lo combo that won her the OGM. They can always find something to over-train!

I agree re: men will push their bodies anyway. Quads should be rewarded because they take a lot longer to perfect in training, are among the riskiest elements in the program, and are impressive for fans to see.

It also helps distinguish men's skating from women's. There are things that women do better than men, such as spins and spirals. Without the harder jumps men's skating would be far less interesting.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I agree re: men will push their bodies anyway. Quads should be rewarded because they take a lot longer to perfect in training, are among the riskiest elements in the program, and are impressive for fans to see.

It also helps distinguish men's skating from women's. There are things that women do better than men, such as spins and spirals. Without the harder jumps men's skating would be far less interesting.

On the subject of quads, I'm wondering why the gradings of throw quads in pairs doesn't match the grading of quads in singles? It essentially negates any advantage of attempting higher quads, because usually in men's even if you fall on a fully rotated quad should still score higher than a triple. But in pairs, a quad lutz throw is just 9 points. A fall would score 5 points, less than a clean throw 3Z worth 5.5. In singles, a quad lutz is 13.6 points to a triple lutz worth 6, so it makes sense to go for a quad lutz if you can fully rotate it, even if you fall. I understand the man helps the woman get the lift to complete the rotations but still the landing needs to be done.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
I think yes, but not by much, just a little bit. Now there has been some boring top level skaters who can land two quad salchows in a free skate and barely offer anything else.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I think yes, but not by much, just a little bit. Now there has been some boring top level skaters who can land two quad salchows in a free skate and barely offer anything else.

I would hardly call Energizer Bunny Max boring.
 

glam

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I think yes, but not by much, just a little bit. Now there has been some boring top level skaters who can land two quad salchows in a free skate and barely offer anything else.

And if the quads were forbidden, they wouldn't even offer them!
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
I don't see Chan regressing to no quads, especially when his quads are even more reliable than his triple axel.

The mere suggestion of de-emphasizing quads is just reactionary. Hey, why not ask the ISU to specifically emphasize Chan's 3A and de-emphasize his quad, while emphasizing everyone else's quads and 3As? :rolleye:

Chan also won because of the base value of his 3F-1/2L-3S sequence; I'm surprised nobody is demanding that 3-jump sequences be restricted to 3-2-2. We should also de-emphasize level 4 footwork, skating skills, transitions, and everything else that could potentially give Chan an advantage over other skaters. :rolleye:

Agreed, seems reactionary to pose such debates given the context
 
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