Is It Time To Deemphasize the Quad? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Is It Time To Deemphasize the Quad?

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
No...and I wasn't a big quad advocate but I think it should be an important part of men's skating. It just should be coupled with very good artistry and not a bunch of falls. This is my problem with skating.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
So, Goe's factor was reduced to 70%.

I should have made myself clearer.

Positive GOE for the standard triples should be either +1 or +2 instead of .7/1.4/2.1. The fact that judges award jumps anywhere from 1 to 3 (sometimes even -1 to 3) shows that judges can't handle the current system.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I think the quad should be de-emphasized. I think it messes up programs, I think it's not physically safe for a skater to continually practice it, and it makes the program all about the jumps instead of being better balanced. Young men work so hard on that jump and others that the rest of their skating falls by the wayside. Max Aaron is a perfect example. He's well-developed in one aspect and sorely lacking in the others. Nothing against Max - he's doing what he thinks is desired. I just like to see a whole program and not amazing jumps.
 

glam

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I think the quad should be de-emphasized. I think it messes up programs, I think it's not physically safe for a skater to continually practice it, and it makes the program all about the jumps instead of being better balanced. Young men work so hard on that jump and others that the rest of their skating falls by the wayside. Max Aaron is a perfect example. He's well-developed in one aspect and sorely lacking in the others. Nothing against Max - he's doing what he thinks is desired. I just like to see a whole program and not amazing jumps.

Max has said that he loves to jump. I think he would keep on jumping quads even if their value would diminish. Some guys just like to practice the jumps but the steps, edges etc. aren't that thrilling for them.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
It's amazing to think that back in Salt Lake City, you had to have at least three quads to be competitive (one in the short, two in the long). And two falls would have killed you. Somehow they were able to punish falls, and yet the guys were still going for the big jumps.

Difficult transitions, intricate footwork, complex spins....and surely I'm fogetting something, might have soemthing to do with this. I find myself truly cofused - I look back at older programs and often feel they are exciting in jumps but empty in skating (the steps, transitions etc); but I look at what we know these guys can do now based on 'lesser' comps and practices, and then what they do in the big comp (trip, fall, water it down) and wonder how we can reward complexity and difficulty fairly without creating a system that encourages and to some extent rewards messy spatfests (which I'm sure are also dangerous to the skaters, or at least could be).
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm with those who think mistakes should be penalized more, but I do like that quads are incentivized under the system. It makes it more interesting because it gives skaters different paths to victory. A great jumper who does other things well still can win championships as we saw at US Nationals, and really Patrick opened the door at Worlds but no one skated clean enough to walk through. (Arguably Dennis did but he did not benefit from reputation scoring like he might have had he been a more consistent skater.)
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Quads should not be deemphasized, but there should be greater penalties imposed on skaters who only do beautiful quads and then basically skate like garbage for the rest of their routine. Penalize the regular stuff gone awry more perhaps. There seems to be an imbalance in the scoring for some skaters in particular and the optics are horrible. It sometimes makes the sport look like "fake wrestling" in the way that the winner is determined. If skating wants to be taken seriously outside of the sport, it needs a revamped system to get a better and fairer result. What happened at worlds may be defensible to some, but it needs to be much farther above reproach than it is. If the sport wants respect, the scoring has to change.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
For me, it's simple: I want falls to have a -3 deduction instead of a -1. Yes, that means if you fall on an easier element, you might get net negative points. I don't care... just don't fall.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I don't think there's anything wrong with Western jump teaching (like I would know, LOL!). I think we have a mediocre crop of men the last few years. Plushenko and Yagudin were exceptional. They did quads AND entertained us with their showmanship AND skated clean (or at least without falling).

Today's unstoppable most excellent champion is lucky if he can do two of the three in a long program. It's hard to know what to emphasize when nobody is truly that great.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
No way. Are you talking about quad de-emphasis because Chan's two quads, contributed to his victory. Or because Daisuke isn't landing them consistently anymore?

The quad is as necessary as the 3-3 in women's if the sport is to progress forward. Why not de-emphasize the triple-triple so that Wagner and Asada don't have to worry about Kim/Russian babies/etc.? :rolleye:

The quad also gives a chance to skaters who would otherwise never catch up to "top"/"favourite" skaters that get a putative PCS cushion. You think Reynolds would have won 4CC had he not done 3 quads? Denis Ten wouldn't have been in second after the SP if he had done a 3A instead of a quad. It's happened before (him skating a clean SP with 3A, 3F-3T, solo 3) and he hasn't scored nearly as high. Javier Fernandez wouldn't have pulled up to third.

As for Poodlepal's argument about Plushenko/Yagudin doing "all three", they never had to do even half the choreography, spins, transitions and footwork in the years they dominated and could focus on jump consistency. Chan's first fall on his lutz was partially due to the step he did before, when in the days of Plushenko/Yagudin, you could go off a long setup. And let's not forget Chan has skated cleanly at the Worlds, in two SPs and one LP, while incorporating the quad. Fernandez and Reynolds have also delivered strong FS with 3 quads, proving you don't have to be a Goebel (all quads only) to put out a successful free.

The quad is probably more important now than ever. I'm not saying somebody should win because of it, but it should be separating the big boys from the also-rans at this point in the sport's progression. It would have been arguably worse if Chan hadn't landed his quads but landed every other element cleanly.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
and you get a miserable OGM named Evan Lysacek
no thanks, its a matter of who can land them though
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
The ISU just decided in 2011 to make it more attractive for skaters to go for the quad (by increasing its value and decreasing penalties for under-rotation). This was rumored to be because Lysacek won the 2010 Olympics without a quad and people didn't think that was right. So now we should change it back again? Why? So that now Chan can go back to winning without a quad instead of winning with two quads like he just did?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I don't see Chan regressing to no quads, especially when his quads are even more reliable than his triple axel.

The mere suggestion of de-emphasizing quads is just reactionary. Hey, why not ask the ISU to specifically emphasize Chan's 3A and de-emphasize his quad, while emphasizing everyone else's quads and 3As? :rolleye:

Chan also won because of the base value of his 3F-1/2L-3S sequence; I'm surprised nobody is demanding that 3-jump sequences be restricted to 3-2-2. We should also de-emphasize level 4 footwork, skating skills, transitions, and everything else that could potentially give Chan an advantage over other skaters. :rolleye:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Perhaps it is time the Quad jump becomes less important and quality skating becomes more important. I would rather watch a really talented skater do triple and double jumps and deliver a near flawless if not flawless performance over an extra rotation. Just thnking!!:biggrin:

If this was the case, Chan would have won with an even greater margin of victory over the pack, because his skating is viewed as having some of the best quality. This would also ensure that Daisuke could make the podium in spite of 8th place TES in the SP and 13th place TES in the FS (although getting the PCS to keep him at 6th overall was generous enough).

There are a lot of skaters who will never have the artistic capabilities as Chan and Takahashi, and rely on good technical content to have a shot at winning. It's a sport after all. It's not the quad that is causing a lack of quality skating... notice that Chan and Ten and Fernandez made errors on simpler jumping passes.

Christ, the women for the longest time were watering down their technical content and winning with 4 triples, the hardest being a loop or a flip. The same will happen in the men's if they feel like they can pull a Lysacek/Buttle and win without bringing the big guns.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
No. Men's skating is the only discipline that has progressed under COP. (Well, maybe dance, too) Plushy was right--men's skating without the quad is ladies' skating.
 

altuixde

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
-snip-
I think it's not physically safe for a skater to continually practice it
-snip-

I agree. It's not cool how skaters get injuries because they have to train so hard. However, big jumps are thrilling to watch. This is quite a conundrum.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Just saying, but there are not that many ladies doing a triple axel, nor have there ever been. It's a rare skill in the ladies' discipline. No quad does not mean ladies skating to me.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
They should increase the fall penalty to 2 point deduction for jump element, and 1 point for non jump. After all, first rule of skating is staying on your feet.
 
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